From lojbab@lojban.org Sat Dec 14 16:13:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Dec 2002 00:13:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 66736 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2002 00:13:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2002 00:13:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao04.cox.net) (68.1.17.241) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2002 00:13:35 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20021215001333.HMDF22825.lakemtao04.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:13:33 -0500 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20021214190430.03176d90@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:12:26 -0500 To: Subject: Re: [lojban] fu'ivla tarmi preti In-Reply-To: <0212141233150J.03697@neofelis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 12:33 PM 12/14/02 -0500, Pierre Abbat wrote: >According to the Book (or at least the downloadable version), a brivla may >not contain a cluster of more than three consonants, and the second pair i= n a >cluster must be an initial consonant pair. These rules are violated by the >undefined fu'ivla {bongnanba} and by many type-3 fu'ivla such as >{matcrflokati} and {cidjrspageti}. The rule as I understand it is that the= re >may not be more than three consonants other than 'r', 'l', 'n', and 'm' in= a >row. The rule as implemented in vlatai is that there may not be more than >three non-vocalic consonants in a row, where 'r', 'n', 'l', or 'm' is a >vocalic consonant iff it is between two consonants. Thus {damskrima}, whic= h I >deem valid, is rejected by vlatai, while it accepts {dapmskrima} and >{dasktrsktima}. What is the correct rule? Nora is of the opinion (which I would probably agree with if I thought=20 about it) that Cowan (and I before him) were not considering fu'ivla when=20 writing most of the morphology rules, because then as now, fu'ivla were=20 considered unimportant fill-ins that did not need careful definition (and=20 indeed such definition was probably impossible). Actually, I think we=20 thought of fu'ivla as being closer to names in terms of rules than brivla. If you look in the section on fu'ivla (pardon the codes, since this came=20 from the master copy with indexing codes, etc. >The form of a=20 >fu'ivla reliably distinguishes it from both the gismu and the cmavo. Like= =20 >cultural gismu, fu'ivla are generally based on a word from a single=20 >non-Lojban lan=ADguage. The word is borrowed(actually copied, hence the=20 >Lojban tanru fukpi valsi) from the other language and Lojbanized the=20 >phonemes are converted to their closest Lojban equivalent and=20 >modifications are made as necessary to make the word a legitimate Lojban=20 >fu'ivla-form word. All fu'ivla: > >

**************************************** >cluster in">

1)
must contain a consonant cluster=20 >in the first five letters of the word; if this consonant cluster is at the= =20 >beginning, it must ei=ADther be a permissible initial consonant pair, or a= =20 >longer cluster such that each pair of adjacent conso=ADnants in the cluste= r=20 >is a permissi=ADble initial consonant pair: spraileis ac=ADceptable, but n= ot=20 >ktraileor trkaile; ***************************************** >

2)
must end in one or more vowels; > >
3)
must not= =20 >be gismu or lujvo, or any combination of cmavo, gismu, and lujvo;=20 >furthermore, a fu'ivla with a CV cmavo joined to the front of it must not= =20 >have the form of a lujvo (the so-called slinku'i test, not discussed=20 >further in this book); > >
prohibition from fu'ivla">
4)
cannot contain y,=20 >although they may contain syllabic pro=ADnunciations of Lojban consonants; > >
5)
like other=20 >brivla, are stressed on the penultimate syllable. ************************************************** >
Note that consonant triples or=20 >larger clusters that are not at the be=ADginning of a fu'ivla can be quite= =20 >flexible, as long as all consonant pairs are permissible. There is no need= =20 >to re=ADstrict fu'ivla clusters to permis=ADsible initial pairs except at = the=20 >beginning. **************************************************** >

> >construction">construction">This is a fairly liberal definition and allows quite a lot=20 >of possi=ADbilities within fu'ivla space. Stage 3 fu'ivla can be made easi= ly=20 >on the fly, as lujvo can, because the procedure for forming them always=20 >guarantees a word that cannot violate any of the rules. Stage 4 fu'ivla=20 >require running tests that are not simple to characterize or perform, and= =20 >should be made only after deliberation and by someone knowl=ADedgeable abo= ut=20 >all the considerations that apply. lojbab --=20 lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org