From jimc@MATH.UCLA.EDU Tue Jan 07 16:56:11 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Jan 2003 00:56:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 11788 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2003 00:56:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jan 2003 00:56:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 00:56:11 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18W4Vv-0000nR-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:56:11 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18W4VM-0000mt-00; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:55:36 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:55:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from bodhi.math.ucla.edu ([128.97.4.253]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18W4VE-0000mY-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:55:28 -0800 Received: from localhost (bodhi.math.ucla.edu [128.97.4.253]) by bodhi.math.ucla.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h080tQ7r010819 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:55:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:55:20 -0800 (PST) To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: open and save In-Reply-To: <7885D119-2269-11D7-97F6-000393629ED4@uic.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 3740 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jimc@math.ucla.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Jim Carter Reply-To: jimc@math.ucla.edu X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=810565 On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, Steven Belknap wrote: > On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 11:53 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > Nooooooo! > > > The use of the lojban word for a computer file is not malglico. > The analogy of computer file to a paper file is a language-independent > extension of the concept of file to cyberspace. is not an apt > lojban word for file. A file *contains* records. I think that we've blundered back into the "wine bottle / bottle of wine" debate, just in a different area. Container words are generally defined as "X1 is a [container] of [content] X2..." So pretty clearly, "se [container]" refers to the content, provided it is actually in a container of the specified kind. But does X1 refer to the container with its content, or the container alone? Before the file is opened, the focus is on the container with its content. After it is opened, you want to work on the content and not be bothered with the container. I find "dacru" unaesthetic as a metaphor for "file", but I suppose it's useable, having the right arguments, though not in the standard order (container - content - etc). As for vreji "x1 is a record of data/facts x2 about subject x3 medium x4", I think "ve vreji" is rather better as a symbol for the file as a container with its contents, independent of the context, e.g. computers, paper, stone tablets... Then, after the file is open, "mi tcidu le vreji". The "medium" can equally well be "paper" or "the thing that the ReiserFS code looks for on your hard disc partition when you pass its name to the "open" system call". It's not necessary to be anally retentive and say that a medium has to be first order physical, so that "hard disc" is the only acceptable value. Also remember that a file can contain actual files, e.g. a "tar" archive, and some software can access the contained files transparently. I can understand Steven's point about "record": in many but far from all files, the file contains an organized sequence of sub-files, called "records" in English, each of which give a variety of data about one subject x3. I looked for good gismu for "stanza" or "segment" (as in a millipede or annelid worm) but didn't get a good word to make a lujvo from; pagbu "part" is the best of a bad lot, not implying uniformity of the segments. pemci (X1 is a poem about x2 author x3 audience x4) conforms nicely to the pattern for works of art, and I'm tempted to suggest a place for the stanzas, but it would spoil the pattern. Returning to the original question, I think kargau (kalri gasnu, open) and ga'ogau (ganlo gasnu, close) are reasonable for use with files and other containers. However, the definition is "x1 (portal/passage/entrance-way) is open/closed [not] permitting passage/access to x2 by x3", and you have to metaphorically stretch a bit to relate this definition to "opening" a book-type object, which everts the entire content, or even "opening" a wine bottle (which at least has a definite passageway to the interior, though x3 does not traverse it). James F. Carter Voice 310 825 2897 FAX 310 206 6673 UCLA-Mathnet; 6115 MSA; 405 Hilgard Ave.; Los Angeles, CA, USA 90095-1555 Email: jimc@math.ucla.edu http://www.math.ucla.edu/~jimc (q.v. for PGP key)