From opoudjis@optushome.com.au Wed Jan 08 06:14:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: opoudjis@optushome.com.au X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Jan 2003 14:14:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 16761 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2003 14:14:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jan 2003 14:14:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au) (210.49.20.172) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 14:14:27 -0000 Received: from optushome.com.au (c17180.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.155.40]) by mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id h08EEQH07127 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 01:14:26 +1100 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 01:14:26 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Subject: Re: open and save To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7E437784-2313-11D7-8794-003065D4EC72@optushome.com.au> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) From: Nick Nicholas X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90350612 X-Yahoo-Profile: opoudjis cu'u la solri > In Turkish, "file" is "dosya" (a collection of papers, from French) and > folder is "klas=F6r" (a ring binder, again from French). .i zdile .i bau le xelso la'ezoigy file gy cu se sinxa zoigy. arxeio=20 gy. noi dunli zoigy. archive gy. .i la'ezoigy folder gy cu se sinxa .ue zoigy. ntosie gy. noi dunli=20 zoigy. binder gy. gi'e ku'i ji'a dunli zoigy dosya gy leka ce'u krasi=20 zoigy dossier gy noi fraso Anti-malglico'ism actually conceals anti-metaphoricism: a file is=20 literally a record, so Lojbanists like to call it that; and metaphors=20 like "ring binder" are hard to glork in general --- unless you already=20 know English. (What happened with dossier going one way in Greek and=20 another in Turkish, OTOH, is probably not the fault of metaphor but of=20 semantic looseness.) But if a metaphor takes over the world, there will still be a sentiment=20 against it in Lojban --- we do aspire to the logical, culture-free=20 language, after all. (Oh, I know the founders luuurve metaphors, and=20 ended up calling tanru that. In some quarters, that's reason enough to=20 avoid them. :-) The calque is what a normal language does. (A really normal language=20 just borrows the form of the word, of course.) But who told you Lojban=20 was a normal language? Dumb to pick Maori as "primitive language obviously too benighted to=20 have word for file"; as my fellow Antipodean Chris pointed out, Maori=20 is going through extensive language planning to ratchet up its=20 prestige, since it does enjoy official status. =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D= =3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D=20=20 =3D=3D Upon completing His outburst, God fell silent, standing quietly at the podium for several moments. Then, witnesses reported, God's shoulders began to shake, and He wept. [http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/god_clarifies_dont_kill.html] Dr Nick Nicholas. nickn@unimelb.edu.au http://www.opoudjis.net