Subject: [lojban] Re: loi preti be fi lo nincli zo'u tu'e

From: Robin Lee Powell <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:10:25 -0800

On Sun, Jan 19, 2003 at 01:33:18PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote:
> coi ro do
> 
> .i mi jinvi le du'u .aunai .ii ro'a bigmli le nu ninpengau fi mi

coi la maten. .i .a'o do nelci le dei ve cusku 

> .i le pu'u mi mi'e. maten. cilre fi la lojban. masti li so'u 

stidi lo'u cu masti le'u

> .ije ru'i manci le du'u ly. frica ro .a'ucu'i rarbau xokau da kei .e
> le du'u .io teva'u makau se finti

"... and the fact (respect) of with what goodness standards the invented
thing.".

milxe cfipu .i stidi lu nu finti li'u

> .i mi pu ze'a di'inai steci'a lo'i preti be le lojbo gerna tezu'e le
> nu lu'o ro do .e'oru'e .einaidai la'acu'i spuda so'u py .i semu'i bo
> mi bazi te preti fi so'e lo su'eso'umoi be py bei le ka cinri

smadi le du'u do stidi zo mei .enai zo moi

> .i le mi preti cu te bangu fi le .u'u .a'unai glibau mu'i le li'i
> terpa le nu na'e jmigau

pe'u do na terpa mu'i le nu le do ga'u jbobau jufra cu mutce xamgu
mu'inai le milxe srera .iji'a .uisai barda .iji'a do so'iroi pilno le
cmavo be zo .ui .ui

> .i le preti zo'u zoi gy.
> 
> Is a jek-connected tanru like {ricfu je ninmu} still a single selbri?
> And in that case, what is its place structure, given that {ricfu} and
> {ninmu} have quite different place structures?

Yes, and:

n1/r1 is a rich man who is wealthy in aspect r2

> What's the difference between {LE broda pe BAI LE brode} and {LE broda
> be BAI LE brode}?

The former is associated with BAI LE brode, which IMO doesn't make a lot
of sense in most cases, and the latter adds a BAI place containing LE
brode to the bridi wrapped up in the outer LE.

> The "imaginary journey" idea doesn't seem to make much sense for some
> FAhA cmavo, such as fa'a, to'o, zo'i. What does {fa'a broda} mean? 

broda occurs towards an unspecified place, i.e. between me and there.

> Or indeed {fa'a mo'i broda}? 

broda occurs whilst moving towards an unspecified place.

> How about {broda fa'a ko'a}? 

broda occurs between here and ko'a, most likely. Or pointing towards
it; not sure.

> Is there any general rule for where events happens for the purposes of
> spatial tenses? For example, if I say {mi ca'u catlu}, as I understand
> it that means the {mi catlu} is true at a point in front of me. But
> does that mean I'm looking at something in front of me, or that
> (paradoxically) I'm in front of myself as I look, or what?

Neither. It means that in front of you, you are a cat. Which is
incredibly silly. But AFAIK no observer is specified.

> Does {ze'e ro roi ku ganai broda gi brode} mean "for each point of
> time, if broda then brode" or "if (broda over the whole of time) then
> (brode over the whole of time)?

Leaving that to the jboskeists.

> How to use functions with ranges beyond the numbers? E.g. if I have a
> function f:A->B with A and B sets {fy fancu abu noi selcmi ku'o by noi
> selcmi}, what's f(x)? According to jbofi'e, {ma'o fy boi xy} and {le
> ma'o fy boi xy} are both ungrammatical, and does {li ma'o fy boi xy}
> make sense?

Hmm.

li ma'o fy. boi pa re

works for me. I believe that's what you want.

<rant type="byfy">

There really should be a better way to do that, though. That's a very
long-winded way to say "eff of two comma/and three". Actually, it's "eff
of twenty three". Hmmm.

Mekso seem to have no explicit way of doing tuples. That's ass.

It is worth noting, however, that

li ma'o fy. vei pa boi re

also works, which is almost certainly "eff of two comma three".
Unfortunately,

li ma'o fy. pa boi re

works too, and I have no idea what that is. I *guess* it's the tuple
(f(2),3).

Explicit tuple cmavo would be nice, though. Oh, wait; maybe that's what
ge'a is. Hmmm. Sort of like currying, except stupid. 8) Or maybe
it's jo'i. That should be a 1-row matrix, which is the same as a tuple
in all cases I'm aware of. 

So

li ma'o fy. pa jo'i re jo'i ci

appears to work; this treats jo'i as infix, which may or may not be
correct.

li ma'o fy. pa boi ci ge'a re

works, but

li ma'o fy. pa ge'a re

does not, so that's not a general solution. I think jo'i is your best
bet for multiple operands of a general function.

ce'o doesn't work in mex, nor do any of the set operators, which is
*insane*. I have *no* idea how to do set math in lojban. jo'i is
*certainly* not it. If I knew how to get JOI to work in mex, that would
be fixable, but I've no idea how to do that. If we can't make JOI work
in mex, then we either need to add set and sequence operations to mex,
or I'm going to throw my weight on the "mex are totally useless" side of
the argument.

As the only B.Math here, AFAIK, I'd like to think that my weight matters in
this case. 8)
</rant type="byfy">

> Are there exact rules for how overriding components of a pro-bridi
> works? e.g. in {da zo'u remna .i naku go'i} is the second sentence
> equivalent to {naku da zo'u remna} or {da zo'u naku remna}? 

As far as I'm aware, those are equivalent.

> Do tenses add up or overwrite? How about attitudinals? seltcita sumti
> with the same tcita? What happens when you bring in connectives? And
> so on.
> 
> What happens when more than one modal place is filled in a bridi? E.g.
> if {broda cau ko'a secau ko'e}, is it true that {ko'a caxlu ko'e} or
> just that {ge ko'a caxlu zo'e gi zo'e caxlu ko'e}? Similarly, is
> {broda cau ko'a cau ko'e} legit, and does it mean the same as {broda
> cau ko'a .e ko'e}?

Leaving those for the jboskeists as well.

BTW, everybody, Martin is the one who fixed up my Inform engine.

-Robin

-- 
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** I'm a *male* Robin.
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