From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Jan 23 15:52:02 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Jan 2003 23:52:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 98080 invoked from network); 23 Jan 2003 23:52:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Jan 2003 23:52:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Jan 2003 23:52:02 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18br8c-0002xL-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:52:02 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18br8X-0002x2-00; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:51:57 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:51:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp189.chch.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.237.189] helo=dave ident=0) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18br8Q-0002wt-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:51:50 -0800 Received: from mbays.homelinux.org (IDENT:1001@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dave (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h0NNqRAZ016189 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:52:27 GMT Received: from localhost (martin@localhost) by mbays.homelinux.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) with ESMTP id h0NNqRk9016186 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:52:27 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: mbays.homelinux.org: martin owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:52:27 +0000 (GMT) X-X-Sender: martin@mbays.homelinux.org To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: za'e "postnex" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 3872 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mbaysATfreeshellDOTorg@flibble.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Martin Bays From: Martin Bays Reply-To: mbaysATfreeshellDOTorg@flibble.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, And Rosta wrote: > Lojbab: > > At 03:41 AM 1/23/03 +0000, And Rosta wrote: > > >Martin Bays: > > > > Is there a nice way to quantify over variables "in afterthought"? > > > > > > > > It's the kind of thing you see in (informal) mathematics all the time - > > > > it's often natural to assume your variables are arbitrary when you write > > > > the main formula, and only afterwards think to put in the "for all x". So > > > > you might have, say "n[sub]i > 0 (all i in N)" > > > > > > > > So is there an elegant way to translate this kind of thing into lojban? > > > > > >Not in Standard Lojban > > > > You just need to be creative > > > > [text] .i ro ibu zo'u go'i/la'edi'u > > or > > [text with no .i on the end] vau to ro ibu zo'u > > Both are elegant but in different ways (which could be discussed on > Jboske) they both require glorking to get from what they actually say > to the intended meaning, whereas ordinary prenexes don't. That doesn't > mean that Martin wouldn't be satisfied with your suggestions, but it > does mean that it would be misleading to describe your suggestions as > afterthought quantification, if that implies some kind of strong parallel > with forethought quantification. > Indeed, but then the mathematical usage we were emulating is similarly ambiguous and ill-defined. I think the {li'o vau to li'o zo'u} solution is an accurate rendering of the original, and sounds quite natural. Though of course you're right that a proper prenex will always be preferable, it's something I can imagine quite often not thinking of in time. Though perhaps it's best to keep lojban unforgiving, and let it teach us to think ahead more... --- #^t'm::>#shs>:#,_$1+9j9"^>h>" < v :>8*0\j" o'u" v" e'i" v".neta"^q> ;z,[; > > ^