From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Jan 24 12:03:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Jan 2003 20:03:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 67259 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2003 20:03:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2003 20:03:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2003 20:03:56 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18cA3L-0005OA-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:03:51 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18c9xt-000501-00; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:58:13 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rlpowell by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18c9xh-0004zs-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:58:01 -0800 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:58:01 -0800 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: loi preti be fi lo nincli zo'u tu'e Message-ID: <20030124195801.GP7230@digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <20030124010609.GE7230@digitalkingdom.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-archive-position: 3889 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Robin Lee Powell From: Robin Lee Powell Reply-To: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 07:36:21PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:46:04PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote: > > > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2003 at 01:33:18PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote: > > > [more snip] > > > > > > > > ce'o doesn't work in mex, nor do any of the set operators, which > > > > is *insane*. I have *no* idea how to do set math in lojban. > > > > jo'i is *certainly* not it. If I knew how to get JOI to work in > > > > mex, that would be fixable, but I've no idea how to do that. If > > > > we can't make JOI work in mex, then we either need to add set > > > > and sequence operations to mex, or I'm going to throw my weight > > > > on the "mex are totally useless" side of the argument. > > > > > > > > > > Umm... you can have JOI connected operands (see e.g. > > > CLL18.17.10)... whether this is an acceptable way of doing > > > mathematical sequences I don't know, though I'd assumed it was. > > > > li vei pa ce re ce ci ve'o vu'u re > > > > works in jbofihe. As do a few other examples. I'm sorry, you're > > absolutely right. > > > > Oddly enough, > > > > li ma'o fy. pa jo'i re ce ci > > > > I read that as "f(1,({1,3}))". Is that right, and is it what you meant? I think that's right, and I have no idea what I intended. 8) > > works but > > > > li ma'o fy. pa ce re ce ci > > > > does not. Anyone know why? > > You need the boi - {li ma'o fy. boi pa ce re ce ci} works. Oh, good. That even makes sense, I guess. 8) > > li ma'o fy. vei pa ce re ce ci > > > > does work, though, and I can accept that, although I'm more likely > > to use jo'i. > > If you want a JOI equivalent of jo'i, shouldn't you be using ce'o? ce > is "in a set with". Yes, probably. 8) > > Now if I just had math stuff to write in lojban... Any ideas? I > > was toying a bit with Einstein's original Relativity paper. > > Fantastic idea! > > > As an added bonus, "li pa ce re ce ci vu'u re" appears to be > > equivalent to the version with vei and ve'o, and satisfies my > > concerns about lojban not having all set operations; if anyone > > things that the above does *not* evaluate to "pa ce ci", please let > > me know. > > I don't see why it should... If you're using vu'u as a set subtraction > operator, surely it needs both sides to be sets. But {re} on its own > is "2", not "{2}". Would {lu'i li re} be "{2}"? I thought any value could be considered a singleton set containing only itself. Fortunately, "li pa ce re ce ci vu'u lu'i re" works, so it's irrelevant. Does that work for set subtraction IYO? > > Now, on to the general set problems. > > > > Unfortunately, that doesn't fix the general set problems. In > > particular, if we have: > > > > le pamoi gerku ce remoi gerku ce cimoi gerku ku ku'a le remoi gerku > > ce vomoi gerku > > > > I'm not sure how to turn that into a set subtraction, without which > > we do *not* have a complete set (ha ha) of general set operators. > > > > Some ideas, comments requested: > > > > le pamoi gerku ce remoi gerku ce cimoi gerku ku ku'a ni'u le remoi > > gerku > > > > le pamoi gerku ce remoi gerku ce cimoi gerku ku ku'a da'a le remoi > > gerku > > > > le pamoi gerku ce remoi gerku ce cimoi gerku ku ku'a nai le remoi > > gerku > > > > I think I like da'a the best, but they all suck, IMO. Having a > > cmavo for set subtraction seems reasonable. > > da'a seems best... though this approach does mean you're taking an > intersection with a proper class, which might be something we'd rather > avoid (isn't it?). .oiro'a What's a proper class? Does that mean you agree that a set subtraction cmavo is needed? > > > > As the only B.Math here, AFAIK, I'd like to think that my weight > > > > matters in this case. 8) > > > > > > Give me a few months, and I'm afraid I'll be a BMath in all but > > > name... and give me another year and I should be an MMath. And > > > then I'll outrank you! Hee-hee. > > > > An actual M.Math, or an M.Sc. in Math? If an actual M.Math, what > > school? > > Eeek! I get confused with the terminology. It's this weird system we > have in England (and maybe the whole of Britain) where you get MMath > for doing a four year first degree, and a BMath (or actually, maybe > just a BA - is a BMath something more special?) for doing the usual > three years. A B.Math is a Bachelor of Mathematics, and it implies that your school has an actual Mathematics *Faculty*, which is very rare; most schools have a Mathematics *Department* underneath the Science or Arts faculties; in the former case you're getting a B.Sc., and a B.A. in the latter. It is in no way more prestigious, it is merely more rare. And since I never *wanted* a Math degree, and am in fact quite bad at advanced mathematics, it's something of a personal joke. 8) > > > I have actually tried to do a little translation of logic/set > > > theory stuff into lojban... but not without difficulty. And I > > > found normal bridi more useful than mex - but then I haven't > > > really fully absorbed that chapter yet. > > > > > > > > I would like to translate something mathematical and substantial; > > got any contacts that would like to let us release a translated > > paper? > > Ummm... I guess I could ask someone. Can you be more specific? Do you > just want some random high-powered maths research? What I'd *really* like to do would be a textbook (or, more likely, a portion thereof), precisely for reasons of comprehensibility. > Would it be comprehensible enough to be translatable? And how official > a "release"? I would like to able to make the lojban translation generally available. Obviously *only* the lojban translation would be so available, so there'd be very little fear of the author losing money. -Robin -- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** I'm a *male* Robin. .i le pamoi velru'e zo'u crepu le plibu taxfu .i le remoi velru'e zo'u mo .i le cimoi velru'e zo'u ba'e prali .uisai http://www.lojban.org/ *** to sa'a cu'u lei pibyta'u cridrnoma toi