From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Jan 26 01:14:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Jan 2003 09:14:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 85721 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2003 09:14:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2003 09:14:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 2003 09:14:23 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18cirv-0006dj-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:14:23 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18cirC-0006dN-00; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:13:38 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ispwest.com ([216.52.245.18] helo=ispwestemail1.aceweb.net) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18cir6-0006dE-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:13:32 -0800 Received: from home.surreality.us (unverified [24.52.250.49]) by ispwestemail1.aceweb.net (Vircom SMTPRS 2.0.241) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:13:01 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:13:18 -0800 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] .i'a question Message-Id: <20030126011318.730a584b.rizen@surreality.us> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.BZ)qPNG7p+y(Qz" X-archive-position: 3915 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rizen@surreality.us Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Theodore Reed From: Theodore Reed Reply-To: rizen@surreality.us X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --=.BZ)qPNG7p+y(Qz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Powell and I got in a discussion tonight about .i'a and we'd like the opinions of the list on the subject: mi jundi i mi go'i coi bancus. do gasnu ma le nu tirna la pimzlyr. pe le rusko bangu je'e .i xu do se bangu le rusko na mutce go'i cilre .io .u'i selterpa mi jinvi le du'u la pimzlyr. pe la lojban. zdile cinri .i'a "Now say, "What would you like to eat?". ... ... "do djica lenu citka ma" ... " .ianairu'e .i'apei mi zmadu nelci lu ma poi cidja cu do se djica li'u tezu'e le nu fanva zoi gy. What would you like to eat? gy. can you put do there? you also need a tu'a djica demands an abstraction Yeah, I guess it does. And no, you can't put do there. ta'o .i'asai .e'u lu do citka ma .au li'u .a lu do citka djica tu'a ma li'u .ieru'e mu'i ma do na nelci lu do djica lenu citka ma li'iu mi na go'i .iku'i mi mutce nelci lu do djica lenu citka ma li'u er mi nelci lu do djica lenu citka ma li'u mi pu stidi le se go'i OK, I don't understand you original quote then. "Now say, "What would you like to eat?". ... ... "do djica lenu citka ma" ... " .ianairu'e .i'apei What were you disbelieving? your acceptance it seemed to indicate that you were planning an doing it yourself You thought I wouldn't like it? as acceptance is the opposite of blame OK, I'm *very* confused now. Oh, you were responding to my lojban above, not your own quote. Got it. yeah I was neutrally accepting your opinion, because I have to basis to form my own. je'e might have been better. yeah or maybe .ie So what was the quote for then? 8) it was an example of a pimsleur course for lojban I think the accept of .i'a is more of an "I accept the blame" or a "My bad" as .i'anai is blaming someone else Oh, pimsleur is a language course. I didn't know that. 8) heh yeah No, .i'a is acceptance of another's actions. i.e. the opposite of blaming someone. My bad is .u'u http://www.simonsays.com/subs/index.cfm?areaid=128 * bancus blinks Cool. when you blame someone else, you aren't saying that the blame for those actions lie with them? acceptance is not approval .u'u is beyond just my bad, it also indicates that you feel sorry about it Remember, attitudinals are always from the POV of the speaker. I am aware. I don't see how the opposite of blaming someone else can be blaming oneself. But I fail to see how that applies in this situation. That's a POV change, not an opposite emotion. if you aren't blaming someone else who are you blaming? It's not a POV change. It's still one person laying blame. Wow. OK. That so doesn't work for me at all, but I see your point. With themself or someone else, it's one person's idea of who the blame belongs to. blaming someone else and blaming yourself are opposites and not blaming anyone at all is the neutral point (or maybe I'm just reading more into it than there is) See, to me, blaming someone for their actions and accepting their actions are opposites. Perhaps we should ask the list. I see accepting blame as something very different. Now, as for ,i'a as opposed to ,u'u. You can accept blame without feeling sorry for what you've done. But it sounds like you're using a less loaded version of blame. You can say, "Yeah, that was my bad." True. But not feel repentant. Yeah, we should probably put this to the list. But there's a difference between acceptance of someone's actions and approval; how do you do that now? .i'e I would use .i'anaise'i, BTW, for what you're saying. No, that's approval. How do I say that I accept what you've done? * bancus blinks. acceptance != approval. I know. 'k. But you asked about approval. or maybe I just misinterpreted No, I asked about how to make the distinction under your scheme. Or at least, that's what I tried to do. 8) I appear to have failed, however. well, what is acceptance? acknowledging that they've done something? Actually, I guess it would be .i'ecu'i Hmmm. That makes your scheme more easily expressive, at least in some sense. Any thoughts on this? Looking at the cf, I think robin may have been right, but I think that the way I saw it makes more sense. (As usual, heh.) -- Theodore Reed (rizen/bancus) -==- http://www.surreality.us/ ~OpenPGP Signed/Encrypted Mail Preferred; Finger me for my public key!~ "Without deviation, progress itself is impossible." -- Frank Zappa --=.BZ)qPNG7p+y(Qz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+M6a6w24JwM4aDNwRAk3IAJ0dIZj/plNzd1De6OHrw5YrR0v+7QCgyqHy eshA6+qL1tYAQrgzd9Gcyz8= =uT6I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.BZ)qPNG7p+y(Qz--