From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Jan 27 15:52:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Jan 2003 23:52:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 77846 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2003 23:52:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Jan 2003 23:52:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Jan 2003 23:52:35 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18dJ3L-0006aE-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:52:35 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18dJ3B-0006Zs-00; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:52:25 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:52:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from rlpowell by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18dJ34-0006Zh-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:52:18 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:52:18 -0800 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: loi preti be fi lo nincli zo'u tu'e Message-ID: <20030127235218.GS17154@digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <20030124230538.GV7230@digitalkingdom.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-archive-position: 3925 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Robin Lee Powell From: Robin Lee Powell Reply-To: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 11:29:53PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote: > Sorry I'm so late to reply - I haven't been getting list emails since > saturday, just happened to amble onto the Yahoo version. I don't > remember offending anyone enough to motivate them to chuck me off the > list... did I? freeshell.org wasn't resolving; probably the SQL worm. You should have recieved ~8 mails from the list several hours ago. > 'Scuse weird formatting - copy&pasted from Yahoo Since the formatting is so icky, I'm dropping anything I have no important commentary on. > > Actually, I've just discovered that jo'e, ku'a and pi'u have rafsi > (jom, > > kuz and piv) - though I'm not sure what to stick them to. I guess > selcmi > > would have to do. > > That still leaves us without set difference, but vlinyselcmi > will do. > > Sorry? vlinyselcmi was meant to be union. Actually, wouldn't plain > vicmu do for set difference? Oh, oops. I'm not sure I would want *plain* vicmu, but certianly vicyselcmi is fine. > > NN gives lujvo for the first two (selcmipi'i and > > sosyselcmipi'i). We might just want to have the second, since > > the first is a special case. The third, continuing the > > pattern, would I guess be sorselcmipi'i, with place structure > > "x1 is the intersection over x2" - i.e. > > > > go ca'e ko'a sorselcmipi'i ko'e > > gi ro da zo'u > > go da cmima ko'a gi da cmima ro de poi cmima ko'e > > IFF I define X as the intersection over the set of sets? Y, then > for all x, IFF x is a member of X then x is a member of all y > which are members of Y. > > Yep. Hey, it's cool that that worked. 8) > Perhaps that "da cmima ro de" should be "da dunli de" (x is > equal to one of the sets in Y)? > > Nope. That would mean something is in ko'a iff it's in ko'e - i.e. > ko'a == ko'e (by extensionality). > > Maybe a simple example would help - > A (intersection) B == (Big intersection) {A,B} > > Something is in A (intersection) B iff it's in A and it's in B - i.e. iff > it's in everything which is in {A,B}. Yeah, Nick's paper went over this as well. > > Any idea, for example, how best to translate ('scuse amateur ASCII > > graphics): > > > > | | > > | | A > > \_/ i > > i in I > > > > ("The union over I of A sub i"), which is the same as > > > > | | > > | | {A : i in I} > > \_/ i > > > > where that big union is my sorselcmipi'i (or sorkuzselcmi)? Do > > we need yet another lujvo, or is there a nice translation of > > that set? I don't think {lu'i .abu boi xi .ibu poi .ibu cmima > > tau .ibu} really works. > > The set of A_i where i is a member of I. Looks fine to me. > > Really? Cool. I'm still not sure I like it, though, if only because > I'm not completely sure how quantification with letterals (and other > non-DA pro-sumti) really works. And also what poi-clauses without a > ke'a mean. Same as the same poi clause with ke'a as the first entry. > Are they really just the equivalent of the English "such that", or the > mathematical "s.t."/":"/"|"? When attached to da and friends, yes. > Don't suppose you could point me towards something which explains it > all? It's in the red book somewhere. 8) Chapter 16, S4. > > Clues, anyone? > > I think "sorkuzselcmi .abu boi xi da poi ro cmima tau .ibu" > works a bit better. Except it doesn't, because apparently you > can't have xi da, which is disturbing. 8P > > I know, which is one reason why I wish I understood letteral > quantification. Also - your poi clause isn't a bridi, and I can't work > out for sure what it was meant to be. {ro da cmima...}? Does that > work? I think I meant romei. Or something. > > > > > > > I would like to translate something mathematical and > > > > > > > substantial; got any contacts that would like to let > > > > > > > us release a translated paper? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ummm... I guess I could ask someone. Can you be more > > > > > > specific? Do you just want some random high-powered > > > > > > maths research? > > > > > > > > > > What I'd *really* like to do would be a textbook (or, > > > > > more likely, a portion thereof), precisely for reasons > > > > > of comprehensibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's actually a very good idea. What kind of subject do > > > > you want? I (very very vaguely) know the author of a > > > > nice+simple complex analysis book, which should be suited > > > > to mex. Or else name a subject and I'll see what I can do. > > > > > > Complex analysis would be cool. I'd also enjoy cryptography, > > > set theory, or subatomic physics. Game theory would be hella > > > cool. > > > > > > Hmmm... > > > > > > My old Cryptography professor might actually be willing to > > > let me do his book. I was supremely fortunate to have > > > [28]http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/~ajmeneze/ as my > > > crypto prof. > > > > > > Unfortunately, Handbook of Applied is already freely > > > available, which defeats part of my idea (translate > > > something that people wouldn't be able to easily get in > > > English, at least without paying, and might actually want). > > > > > > > I'm afraid I don't have any tutors/lecturers who've written > > anything especially cool... but if the crypto thing doesn't > > work out give me a shout and I'll see if I can do 'owt. > > 'owt? > > Sorry, couldn't resist continuing the inadvertant rhyming. (It's the > opposite of "nowt", if that was a ki'a) (except maybe it should just > be "owt"). > > Well, if you don't mind giving a shot at the complex analysis > thing, I'd appreciate it. > > Then I will. > > I'll mail my crypto prof about his Elliptic Curves book, if > anyone's interested in reading a book on elliptic curve cyphers. > 8) > > In lojban? Of course! Well, would anyone else be interested I wonder. 8) > BTW, I'm nearly done with > > [29]http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/hobbies/lojban/algebra.txt > > Pretty impressive. Which I guess is a compliment to Nick's translation > skills, your translation skills, and the ability of Lojban to > represent maths. Huzzah all round! Woohoo! So it matches the original OK, then? I've been told I have moderately scary abilities at back-translation; I think it was Jay who said that. -Robin -- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** I'm a *male* Robin. .i le pamoi velru'e zo'u crepu le plibu taxfu .i le remoi velru'e zo'u mo .i le cimoi velru'e zo'u ba'e prali .uisai http://www.lojban.org/ *** to sa'a cu'u lei pibyta'u cridrnoma toi