From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Feb 28 06:32:11 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 28 Feb 2003 14:32:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 10219 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2003 14:32:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Feb 2003 14:32:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Feb 2003 14:32:07 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 18olYU-00041f-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:32:06 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18olYJ-000411-00; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:31:55 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18olXy-00040P-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 06:31:34 -0800 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1SEc8bE029464 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:38:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id h1SEc8Mw029463 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:38:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:38:08 -0600 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Any (was: Nick will be with you shortly) Message-ID: <20030228143808.GA29375@allusion.net> References: <20030228032536.GA27053@allusion.net> <20030228005250.R1282-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030228005250.R1282-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-archive-position: 4215 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 12:59:32AM -0500, Invent Yourself wrote: > On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Jordan DeLong wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 09:39:07PM -0500, Craig wrote: [...] > > > If "mi nitcu lo mikce" means that I need a doctor, but that there is = no > > > specific doctor that I need, then I need any doctor. If that's not wh= at Any > > > means to you, then perhaps you could define it for us to better demon= strate > > > what your problem is. > > > > If > > la bab. nitcu la djan. > > and > > la djan. mikce > > then one can infer that > > la bab. nitcu lo mikce > > But you can't infer > > la bab. nitcu mikce > > (something like la bab. nitcu ledu'u da mikce vo'a, except that > > you can't do that). > > > > This should show that they're different (provided you agree with > > it). Someone like And or Nick or Xorxes is more likely to be able > > to give a better definition of Any than I, but if you don't buy the > > above I can try. >=20 >=20 > Why would I buy the above? la is specific, so I reject instantly any > "proof" based on it. Ok, I'll put it in logic then. b is bob, j is John, N is nitcu, M is mikce: Nbj Mj ----- Nbj & Mj &-intro Ex(Nbx & Mx) E-intro Maybe you disagree that the lojban directly corresponds to these logical formulae, though that seems to be unlikely. > Your understanding of the English word "any" is not shared by me and > Craig, for whom "any" means nonspecific. You seem to think that "any" is > somehow specific. Or something. Anyway, Craig's narrowing process, > starting with da (any thing), and narrowing down to da poi mikce (any > thing that is a doctor) is canonical, and must be refuted if there are an= y > objections. Any is not specific. "I need a doctor" (which is Any) says nothing about which doctor, doesn't assert the existence of such a doctor, and doesn't suggest that some doctors may suffice and other doctors may not. "There is a doctor that I need", which corresponds to "lo" (and to Ex(Nbx & Mx)) claims that the doctor(s) exists, implies that some suffice and some don't (or you'd say "ro" instead of su'o), and also says nothing about which doctor, so it is not specific. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+X3RQDrrilS51AZ8RAoBNAJ0ckzQ92vr5iyz6EDY2K1ARbs0mWwCglcZI XdioaL/vTGNOA5eWcOmfO04= =7KKK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e--