From ragnarok@pobox.com Mon Mar 03 16:02:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 4 Mar 2003 00:02:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 21096 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2003 00:02:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Mar 2003 00:02:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 2003 00:02:42 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 18pztK-0003Ud-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:02:42 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18pzqo-0003OO-00; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:00:07 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.intrex.net ([209.42.192.250]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18pzqY-0003Nr-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:59:50 -0800 Received: from craig [209.42.200.67] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC461B35019C; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:59:02 -0500 To: Subject: [lojban] Re: Honorifics (was: RE: Re: The Any thread) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:59:25 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030303235645.GA20658@allusion.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@pobox.com [209.42.200.67] X-archive-position: 4314 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ragnarok@pobox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: "Craig" Reply-To: ragnarok@pobox.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> >i la meris na nitcu la mikc.fus. noi mikce >> >> I was just wondering whether this is really the best way for me to translate >> "Doctor Foo". I have never seen honorifics in Lojban, and assume that in >> native Lojban text there would be no equivalent of Mr., although Dr. would >> probably be used. However, more honorifics might become relevant in >> translations. >> >> If nobody has addressed this yet, I propose that honorifics be gisms or cvc >> rafsi of an appropriate term. >ga'i Despite the gloss, ga'i does not cover honorific territory. It is necessary for a true honorific system to be able to indicate more than rank. For instance, most communist leaders would want an honorific indicating that they are close to the people. The truly idealist ones would even be put off by constant ga'inaiing, which would seem to them to be a way to address a powerful member of the bourgeoisie. Also, most honorifics that have nothing to do with leadership are not simply rank. These include both honorific meanings of "Doctor", "Professor" when used honorifically, "the Honorable" for judges, and probably some that I can't think of. Also consider the English system, which it would help to be able to translate for use when translating texts. Mister for male, Miss for unmarried female, and suspensions that don't expand to anything anymore but are pronounced "miz" and "misses" for generic and married female respectively. This cannot be said with ga'i, and it is essential for translations that it be translatable. ga'i helps, of course, but it doesn't go far enough.