From lojbab@lojban.org Mon Mar 03 16:35:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 4 Mar 2003 00:35:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 79502 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2003 00:35:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Mar 2003 00:35:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao01.cox.net) (68.1.17.244) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 2003 00:35:47 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.92.1]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030304003545.XINN18293.lakemtao01.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:35:45 -0500 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030303192157.036bea20@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:31:56 -0500 To: Subject: Re: [lojban] gismu etymology In-Reply-To: <200303031408.25226.phma@webjockey.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 02:08 PM 3/3/03 +0100, Pierre Abbat wrote: >On Monday 03 March 2003 12:56, Craig wrote: > > >> Is there data for this stuff somewhere? > > > > > >The nitty-gritty details are at > > > > http://www.lojban.org/files/etymology/finprims > > > > This puzzles me. The Spanish glosses are sometimes really weird. eg, > > pont - puente > > kord - cuerda > > port - puerta > > > > This 'ue' does represent an original /O/, but it contrasts with /o/. It is > > also not pronounced o anywhere, except maybe portugal - and that is > > generally not thought of as the same language. What happened? > >Some words have a regular alternation between "ue" and "o" depending on >stress: oler:huele; contar:cuente. Perhaps the "o"-form is the stem of a >longer derived word. It was because "ue" in Spanish is almost always etymologically a sound change from Latin "o", so that we are picking up a root supposedly recognizable in all Romance languages, and often English as well. This was partly to strengthen the influence of Spanish Consider door English "dor", Spanish "puert-". Spanish being less weighted than English and Chinese (and Hindi) it probably would have gotten no contribution into the resulting word. Using "port-", it reinforces the English, making sure the "or" is there, and provided the opportunity to get the p or the t in the word (which it ultimately did not). We had a whole set of tables on how optimally to convert each language to Lojban phonemes systematically. I think the Spanish rules were close to what were devised by Chuck Barton (who was a polyglot linguist for the Navy including Spanish) for JCB back in the 1970s. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org