From ragnarok@pobox.com Wed Mar 05 15:21:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ragnarok@pobox.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_1); 5 Mar 2003 23:21:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 31950 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2003 23:21:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Mar 2003 23:21:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Mar 2003 23:21:57 -0000 Received: from craig [209.42.200.67] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id A6937040216; Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:21:55 -0500 To: Subject: RE: [lojban] Re: The Any thread Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 18:22:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200303052302.SAA01627@mail.reutershealth.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@pobox.com [209.42.200.67] From: "Craig" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=48763382 X-Yahoo-Profile: kreig_daniyl >> This is what the Any interpretation means! No specific doctor is needed. >Fair enough. >> However, I do need a doctor, and when that doctor shows up e is likely >> to be specific. >"Specific", in the sense used in talking about Lojban gadri, is not a property >of doctors but of references to them. When I say "there's a doctor in the >next room", I may know perfectly well that the doctor is Tripp Hammer, but >I am still referring non-specifically. Yes. However, if I say "mi nitcu lo mikce" and Dr. Foo shows up, my need has been filled by a specific doctor - Dr Foo. E can still be referred to nonspecifically, as e was in the "mi nitcu lo mikce" sentence. But, there, I maintain that the listener cannot be held to have been told of any specific doctor who is needed, and that if the speaker is communicating there is none. >> "I need a doctor" in English usually means "I need Any doctor", which would >> be false if: >> 1. There is a specific doctor that I need. I could then still need a doctor, >> but I wouldn't need Any doctor, which is what I interpret lojban "mi nitcu >> lo mikce" as meaning. Maybe it's just a glico bias, but I also think that my >> interpretation makes more sense. >Another problem here is that "I need any doctor" is singular, whereas >"mi nitcu lo mikce" might signal a need for more than one doctor. >"I need any doctors" sounds bizarre to me. Well, I think there is no controversy that the English is specifically singular and the lojban doesn't specify. >> 2. My need can be filled without a doctor. Then I don't need a doctor. >No controversy here. I was just listing what I considered to be necessary for "I need Any doctor" to be true. I didn't expect any that to be controversial at all (except for the Lojban translation), I was just explaining my interpretation. >(A "tanka", or extended haiku) What are the rules for this form?