From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Apr 17 21:00:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 04:00:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 87507 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 04:00:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 04:00:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 04:00:42 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 196N3K-0004cQ-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:00:42 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 196N2z-0004c5-00; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:00:21 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 196N2e-0004bo-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:00:00 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h3I4Amsr001151 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:10:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3/Submit) id h3I4AlJK001150 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:10:47 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:10:47 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: materials needed for resumption of ju'i lobypli Message-ID: <20030418041047.GA799@allusion.net> References: <20030416210910.GX14888@skunk.reutershealth.com> <20030417183836.GI26227@skunk.reutershealth.com> <20030417190708.GN31828@digitalkingdom.org> <20030417191424.GM26227@skunk.reutershealth.com> <20030417191741.GO31828@digitalkingdom.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030417191741.GO31828@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-archive-position: 4820 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 12:17:41PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 03:14:24PM -0400, John Cowan wrote: > > Robin Lee Powell scripsit: > > > This would, for the record, *NOT* be the level of explanation I > > > was looking for. 8) > >=20 > > He asked how many states of the world there can be. I replied "at > > least as many as the number of integers raised to its own power, > > which is a lot." >=20 > I didn't say I didn't understand what you said (I didn't, but I > could have looked it up on Wolfram if I cared). I just meant that > the level you guys are discussing at isn't the kind of help most of > us need with mu'ei. The explanation you just gave helps very > little. There's two explanations at http://www.lojban.org/wiki/index.php/possible%20worlds%20and%20mu%27ei of different levels of technicality (nitcion didn't think mine was simple enough, but I think that it has to be (though perhaps my writing of it could be clearer)---this *is* Lojban, after all). I was introduced to modal concepts from a few chapters in McCawley's book, which would be a good thing to read, and didn't understand And's explanation of it beforehand ("possible worlds" sounds like wanking, to be frank, if you don't know what is meant by it (the high-level explanations of it do also, imho)). I dunno what's going on (if anything) with bpfk stuff, but there was some talk on jboske of revamping mu'ei to be able to specify different types of modality instead of lumping it into one single thing which conflates all types (you would still be able to leave it up to context though). I think it involved something like a ma'ai (think ma'i) with a lesi'o broda or somesuch at a higher level of scope than the mu'ei. Dunno. All you *really* need to know is that mu'ei gi mi klama le zarci gi mi citka lo nanba means If I were to go to the store, I would eat some bread. If you want to know more than that, I think a book on modal logic is the best way to go (or a book with a section that discusses it from a high-level perspective, like McCawley's book), if the various attempted explanations don't suffice (none of them sufficed for me, as I mentioned above, and my explanation at the above url may or may not be that much better). --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+n3rHDrrilS51AZ8RApNHAKCSvGPACjaup70uDTALNsnIX8kE1ACfZfVk artFtjEc5O0OpnwUiT/fV4U= =W53z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt--