From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Apr 18 15:20:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 22:20:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 67935 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:20:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 22:20:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:20:54 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 196eE2-0001us-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:20:54 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 196eDz-0001uZ-00; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:20:51 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 196eDq-0001uP-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:20:42 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h3IMVYsr006513 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:31:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3/Submit) id h3IMVY1f006512 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:31:34 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:31:34 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Y+NAI is not grammatical; jbofi'e is not always right (was Re: ynai) Message-ID: <20030418223134.GA6392@allusion.net> References: <20030418201816.GB16622@mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Kj7319i9nmIyA2yE" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-archive-position: 4842 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --Kj7319i9nmIyA2yE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 06:10:29PM -0400, Craig wrote: > >> >{mi viska le bloti y nai} is grammatical according to jbofi'e, but {m= i > >> viska > >> >le bloti nai} is not. Is it correct? > >> > >> The nai bonds to the y. NAI never bond to a word other than the > immediately > >> preceeding one. Thus, mi viska le bloti ynai means "I see the boat (an= d I > >> don't hesitate to say so)" whereas mi viska le bloti nai is ungramatic= al. > I > >> have been unable to find Y being negated in this way in any real use, > >> however. >=20 > >That's icky. Saying "uh" should not change the grammar of the sentence. > >It should be pre-parsed out like word+SI. >=20 > The ickiness of ynai is probably responsible for its complete lack of use= . > As NAI shepherd on the BPFK, I have looked for that particular compound > before, and it does not seem to exist. Aside from being in the grammar (a= t > least jbofi'e thinks so; I can't read BNF), there is nothing in the basel= ine > at present telling us that ynai should be grammatical. My interpretation > that the nai bonds to the y is based on the fact that in every single oth= er > use, nai bonds to the word right before it. Looking at the BNF, it doesn't look like it should be grammatical: indicator: (UI | CAI) [NAI] | Y | DAhO | FUhO and the informal rules word: [BAhE] any-word [indicators] any-word : "any single word (no compound cmavo)" are the relevant parts. The Y rule doesn't support NAI, so I think the author of jbofi'e probably cheated and implemented Y as a UI for easiness. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --Kj7319i9nmIyA2yE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+oHzGDrrilS51AZ8RAlPyAKCjtxSg1hehN6g7/cZ+h2DUKu0uBQCgqN3W /2KaNtXpMYPC4VkCM5aDa5I= =BfWx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Kj7319i9nmIyA2yE--