From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Apr 18 15:49:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 18 Apr 2003 22:49:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 7176 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2003 22:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2003 22:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 22:49:00 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 196efE-00024m-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:49:00 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 196ef7-00024T-00; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:48:53 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 196ef0-00024K-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:48:46 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h3IMxcsr007190 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:59:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3/Submit) id h3IMxc6T007189 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:59:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:59:38 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Y+NAI is not grammatical; jbofi'e is not always right (was Re: ynai) Message-ID: <20030418225938.GA6836@allusion.net> References: <20030418223134.GA6392@allusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-archive-position: 4846 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 06:29:07PM -0400, Craig wrote: > >Looking at the BNF, it doesn't look like it should be grammatical: >=20 > >indicator: (UI | CAI) [NAI] | Y | DAhO | FUhO >=20 > >and the informal rules >=20 > >word: [BAhE] any-word [indicators] > >any-word : "any single word (no compound cmavo)" >=20 > >are the relevant parts. The Y rule doesn't support NAI, so I think > >the author of jbofi'e probably cheated and implemented Y as a UI > >for easiness. >=20 > As I say, I do not read BNF. I couldn't find mention of Y+NAI in the Book= , > so when I realized that y was in its own cmavo (I had mislearned it as a = UI) > I checked jbofi'e to see whether it could take NAI. It could, but I found= no > usage of that and no mention in the Book, so it is not mentioned in the > descriptive record I posted to the BPFK forum. I didn't even realize BPFK stuff was going on (that's what I get for not paying attention I guess). No offense, but it makes me a tad nervous that you are being called the "shepherd" of nai (whatever that means), insomuch as you have been unabashedly in favor of the abomination "ka'enai". Quick looking at the forum you just mentioned proves my nervousness well-founded: "Yet another use is in negating CAhA. This use of NAI is not permitted under baselined Lojban as it currently exists. However, the compound "ka'enai" is one of the twenty most common cmavo compounds. It appears in the translations of Le Petit Prince and of Alice in Wonderland. Even though this usage is currently not part of the baseline, it is undeniably part of the language, rather like "ain't" in certain English dialects. "ka'enai" seems to have the same meaning as the crunchier "na'eka'e". Surprisingly, this is an example of NAI being used for scalar negation; however, the difference in meaning between this and "na ka'e" is not obvious." Question, then: will people who aren't paying attention be notified when votes on this kind of crap happen? (And btw, can we please stop with this "ka'enai" =3D=3D "ain't" rhetoric? They don't even make sense....there is no language definition for English, much less a LALR(1) grammar). --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+oINaDrrilS51AZ8RAtfAAJ0bNs9JvSpVUis+S3PIkrz8S1UFsACfeots 4ifXJH+HQPdfUQyUWSrT9nE= =MCzQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3--