Subject: [lojban] Re: Y+NAI is not grammatical; jbofi'e is not always right (was Re: ynai)

From: Jordan DeLong <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:59:38 -0500

On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 06:29:07PM -0400, Craig wrote:
> >Looking at the BNF, it doesn't look like it should be grammatical:
> 
> >indicator:	(UI | CAI) [NAI] | Y | DAhO | FUhO
> 
> >and the informal rules
> 
> >word:	[BAhE] any-word [indicators]
> >any-word	: "any single word (no compound cmavo)"
> 
> >are the relevant parts. The Y rule doesn't support NAI, so I think
> >the author of jbofi'e probably cheated and implemented Y as a UI
> >for easiness.
> 
> As I say, I do not read BNF. I couldn't find mention of Y+NAI in the Book,
> so when I realized that y was in its own cmavo (I had mislearned it as a UI)
> I checked jbofi'e to see whether it could take NAI. It could, but I foundno
> usage of that and no mention in the Book, so it is not mentioned in the
> descriptive record I posted to the BPFK forum.

I didn't even realize BPFK stuff was going on (that's what I get
for not paying attention I guess).

No offense, but it makes me a tad nervous that you are being called
the "shepherd" of nai (whatever that means), insomuch as you have
been unabashedly in favor of the abomination "ka'enai".

Quick looking at the forum you just mentioned proves my nervousness
well-founded:

"Yet another use is in negating CAhA. This use of NAI is not permitted
under baselined Lojban as it currently exists. However, the compound
"ka'enai" is one of the twenty most common cmavo compounds. It
appears in the translations of Le Petit Prince and of Alice in
Wonderland. Even though this usage is currently not part of the
baseline, it is undeniably part of the language, rather like "ain't"
in certain English dialects. "ka'enai" seems to have the same meaning
as the crunchier "na'eka'e". Surprisingly, this is an example of
NAI being used for scalar negation; however, the difference in
meaning between this and "na ka'e" is not obvious."

Question, then: will people who aren't paying attention be notified
when votes on this kind of crap happen?

(And btw, can we please stop with this "ka'enai" == "ain't" rhetoric?
They don't even make sense....there is no language definition for
English, much less a LALR(1) grammar).

-- 
Jordan DeLong - [email-masked]
lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u
sei la mark. tuen. cusku