From mathmaniac@hanmail.net Sun Apr 20 23:28:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mathmaniac@hanmail.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Apr 2003 06:28:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 66228 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2003 06:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2003 06:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2003 06:28:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Apr 2003 06:28:44 -0000 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 06:28:43 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: zo'e (was Re: The art of place structure) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1832 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "sshiskom" X-Originating-IP: 143.248.205.98 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=122399845 X-Yahoo-Profile: sshiskom Rob Speer wrote: >> Note that you don't need the {fa zo'e zo'e} at all. >> Any place that is left out is automatically {zo'e}. And eye_onus wrote: > Yes, I understand that much. I was using {zo'e zo'e} as > in "something something". Not as in > {mi klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e} is "I go" but as in > {mi klama zo'e} to express "I go to (something)". > Basically, I was using the word {zo'e} to the lojban for > "something", or "insert word that makes sense here." That's good question! And it's what {zu'i} is all about. Following is an excerpt from RefGram Chap. 7: ---- zo'e KOhA zo'e-series: the obvious value zu'i KOhA zo'e-series: the typical value The cmavo of the zo'e-series represent indefinite, unspecified sumti. The cmavo ``zo'e'' represents an elliptical value for this sumti place; it is the optional spoken place holder when a sumti is skipped without being specified. Note that the elliptical value is not always the typical value. The properties of ellipsis lead to an elliptical sumti being defined as ``whatever I want it to mean but haven't bothered to figure out, or figure out how to express''. The cmavo ``zu'i'', on the other hand, represents the typical value for this place of this bridi: 7.1) mi klama le bartu be le zdani le nenri be le zdani zu'i zu'i I go to-the outside of the house from-the inside of the house [by-typical-route] [by-typical-means] In Example 7.1, the first ``zu'i'' probably means something like ``by the door'', and the second ``zu'i'' probably means something like ``on foot'', those being the typical route and means for leaving a house. On the other hand, if you are at the top of a high rise during a fire, neither ``zu'i'' is appropriate. It's also common to use ``zu'i'' in ``by standard'' places. ---- mi'e sanxiyn.