From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Apr 22 06:53:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 22 Apr 2003 13:53:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 179 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 13:53:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2003 13:53:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 13:53:12 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 197yCt-00009y-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:53:11 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 197yCd-00008O-00; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:52:55 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web10902.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.131.38]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 197yCI-00007L-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:52:34 -0700 Message-ID: <20030422135233.52356.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [132.178.214.242] by web10902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:52:33 PDT Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [lojban] Re: The art of place structure. (And how to destroy it.) To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <3EA53016.7765.5DF971@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 4885 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eye_onus@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jon MacLeod From: Jon MacLeod Reply-To: eye_onus@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --- Philip Newton wrote: > On 19 Apr 2003 at 2:39, eye_onus wrote: > > > I am familiar with 'se' and related, which switch x1 and xn, but is > > there a way to alter the place structure of 'klama' to mean 'x1 goes > > to x2 by means x3 from x4 via route x5'? > > As others have commented, this can be done by the use of multiple SE. > See also > http://www.lojban.org/wiki/index.php/Rearranging%20arguments%20without%2 > 0using%20FA (should be one line ... or search for "Rearranging > arguments without using FA" on the Wiki). The order you "want" is {te > xe ve te klama} (other combinations are also possible; this is the one > listed on the page under "x1 x2 x5 x3 x4 te xe ve te brodu"). Not > pretty, but it does what you want. Yeah, I had figured that out on my own after reading the post with the 'se te se' example, and decided that, while that does the right thing, the work required to do it is not worth the result. So far, it seems just using 'fu ... fi' is the best way, but I'm checking out that site, too. > You can also use cmavo from selma'o BAI; for example, "by means" is > xeka'a, so you could say "mi klama le zarci xe ka'a le karce". This approach is better than 'te xe ve te', but still too much effort. I was hoping there was a way of making a lujvo with the revised place structure, or perhaps re-arranging the existing place structure without such constructs as 'te xe ve te' or 'xe ka'a', but it seems I was mistaken. Oh well, I suppose I'll just make do. (I don't consider re-arranging the existing place structure to be feasible, mainly because of those of you who have learned 'klama' as it is, known it as such for years, and would have to remember that 'by means' is in x3, not x5.) -Jon ===== "I have a brain, I've just lost my mind." -Ian McLeod-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----Version 3.1GSC>$ d+(++) s++:-- a-- C++ UL P L>+++ !E W+(++) N++ o? K- !w--- O- M@ V? PS+++ PE- Y+ PGP- t+ !5 X(+) R+ !tv-- b+++ DI+ D+ G e* h* r-(%) y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com