Subject: Comments (Re: lo djedi poi na za'o zasti)

From: "sshiskom" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:06:34 -0000

I revised my translation according to comments of xorxes.
Many thanks to xorxes!

xorxes commented on word for "horizon":
> As for the word for "horizon", I propose {tankoi}, or
> {tantedykoi}. Or also {tanxaskoi} for this poem.

I would choose {xaskoi} for "verge". Anyway, outside the
poetical usage, "verge" is just {korbi}, AFAIK. So {xaskoi}
for "sea verge". Thanks for suggestions!

xorxes commented on use of vocative:
> I don't think the song is addressed to the tears, otherwise it
> would be "I know not what _you_ mean". I would use a topic
> prenex here.

Absolutely right! I forgot the topic marker, even though it is
the most common marker in my native language!

Note: In Korean, the subject of the "declinable" (This one is a
literal translation of Korean grammatical term "yongeon". Korean
has no grammatical distinction between verbs, adjectives, and
definitions.) is usually marked by a topic marker in the main
sentence, and by a subject marker in the subordinate clause. And
if successive sentences have the same subject, they can be elided.

xorxes commented on use of x3 place of {jimpe}:
> Also, I'm not sure about that property in the x3 of jimpe.
> I would have said {mi na jimpe le du'u ko'a sinxa makau}.

Agreed. However, {kau} is confusing. Do I need to say {makau}?
Isn't simply saying {kau} would do the job?

xorxes commented on missing cmavo:
> In the phrase {ca lenu catlu le selgei te critu je purdi
> e lenu pensi...}, You need {kei} before {e}, otherwise
> the second {lenu...} is joined to {le selgei...}.

> {du'i le prami e le pamoi ri} should be
> {du'i le nu prami e le pamoi be ri}.

I should have read output of {jbofi'e} more carefully.

One more thing is, I added {ku} before {be} in
{le kandi kurfa be tega'a}. But what is "unto dying eyes" anyway?
"The casement"? "slowly growing"? "a glimmering square"?
Still not sure about this.

xorxes commented on translation of "that are no more":
> I prefer {poi na za'o zasti} for "that are no more".
> I don't understand how {paroi} fits there.

> Another option would be {poi xa'o na zasti}, where
> {xa'o} is the experimental ZAhO meaning "occurring
> before the expected beginning of", similar to "already",
> the counterpart of {za'o}.

Much better than my clumsy attempt. I should learn to use
ZAhO, really! By the way, where can I find those "experimental
cmavo"?

xorxes commented on topic of second, third, fourth stanza:
> Isn't that ko'a?

I explicitly wrote {lo djedi zo'u} on the second stanza, and
changed {ni'o} to {.i}, thus making "days" topic to all these
stanzas in my revision.

According to Korean translation I have, it is "days", not
"tears", that is fresh, sad, strange, dear, sweet, deep, and wild.
By the way, it says "So sad, so fresh, the days that are no more".
Isn't "days" sad and fresh here? It certainly is not "tears".

xorxes commented on use of {ti'u}:
> {ti'u} is really for clock time. Here I think you just
> want {ca}.

I don't think so! {ti'u} is {tcika} modal, and {tcika} is glossed
"time of day". Is it inappropriate to use {ti'u} as in
{ti'u le nicte}, meaning "in the night"? I ask this, for I used
this phrase in my translation of "The Sick Rose". And nobody
commented that wrong then.

If it is appropriate, why {ti'u le murse} is not? {murse} has
the same place structure with {nicte}, namely, "x1 is night/dawn
of day x2 at the location x3". (Note the place "of day x2"!)
Although {nicte} and {murse} is not "hours:minutes:seconds",
I claim the use of these words with {ti'u} is nonetheless legit.

xorxes commented on {me le... je me le...} of the third stanza:
> Perhaps you could just say {liryrai} instead of
> {me le liryrai}, saving yourself some be-beis as well.
> And {je}? As something that is both the earliest pipe
> AND the casement?

Good point. My intention was, "sad and strange, similar in property
of something that is specific to the earliest pipe sensed by
dying eyes AND is specific to the casement sensed by dying ears".

But {me le} is clumsy. I revised this stanza altogether to be
read more easily, but I don't think my intention was wrong.

xorxes commented on use of {po'e}:
> Also, I would definitely use {be} instead of {po'e} with
> {kerlo} and {kanla}.

Absolutely. I considered how to express the notion of "body part",
and came to "inalienable possession", and forgot the x2 place of
these gismu!

xorxes commented:
> {poi se morji ze'aba le nu morsi}?
> {ba le nu mrobi'o} or {ba le nu co'a morsi}, I suppose.

I don't understand.

xorxes commented on effect of repetition:
> Very nice translation, though ending every stanza with {ko'e}
> does not have quite the same reinforcing effect as ending them
> with "the days that are no more". Why not be more repetitive
> in Lojban too?

So I replaced every {ko'e} with {lo djedi poi na za'o zasti},
and it looks much better!

I also spelt out {le caca'o morsi} two times, as Tennyson repeated
{dying} twice.

> mi'e xorxes.
mi'e sanxiyn.