From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun May 04 08:33:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 4 May 2003 15:33:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 69097 invoked from network); 4 May 2003 15:33:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2003 15:33:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2003 15:33:50 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19CLUs-0005X6-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:33:50 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CLUk-0005Wm-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:33:42 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 04 May 2003 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.22.25] helo=mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CLUY-0005Wd-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:33:30 -0700 Received: from free.fr (AMontpellier-104-1-7-164.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.223.164]) by mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id CB99A34000BE for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 17:32:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3EB53281.2060300@free.fr> Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:32:17 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Stress of cmene References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> In-Reply-To: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-archive-position: 5106 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: nessus@free.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Lionel Vidal From: Lionel Vidal Reply-To: nessus@free.fr X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out Pierre Abbat wrote: >What is the default stress of cmene that >* have a diphthong including 'y' in the penult? e.g. maluykon. >* have a penult with 'y' and no antepenult? e.g. lylun. >* have 'y' the ult? e.g. kokakolys. >Are two cmene considered the same if they differ only in stress? If they >differ only in whether the stress is written? What about two cmene which >differ by a comma, such that the resulting stress is moved? e.g. djeimstaun., >djeimsta,un. > > As commas are never required (CLL p32), [djeimstaun.] and [djeimsta,un] are the same, whatever default stress you put on them. Hence more generally, to be consistent, we should infer that two cmenes differing only in stress should be the same. But then, if this conclusion holds, the default stress does not matter at all in cmenes :-) and your first questions need no answers :-) Nonetheless, as an indication for a reader to pronounce a cmene correctly where stress may matter (let's say in a poem, with stress giving the rythm), I think we should strictly follow the simple rule that all cmenes are by default stressed on the penultimate syllable, whatever it is. I do not see any point in writing syllabic consonants or buffers in cmene, and by default all syllables in cmene should be considered as true syllables. This is consistent with point 4 of CLL p.66 In any cases, it is the responsability of the writer to overspecify stress if he/she thinks it matters, when say, a syllable with 'y' will be unusually stressed by default. Thus: maluykon -> malUYkon, lylun -> lYlun, kokakolys -> kokakOlys Best wishes, Lionel From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun May 04 08:33:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 4 May 2003 15:33:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 69097 invoked from network); 4 May 2003 15:33:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2003 15:33:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2003 15:33:50 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19CLUs-0005X6-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:33:50 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CLUk-0005Wm-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:33:42 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 04 May 2003 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.22.25] helo=mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CLUY-0005Wd-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:33:30 -0700 Received: from free.fr (AMontpellier-104-1-7-164.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.223.164]) by mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id CB99A34000BE for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 17:32:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3EB53281.2060300@free.fr> Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:32:17 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Stress of cmene References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> In-Reply-To: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-archive-position: 5106 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: nessus@free.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Lionel Vidal From: Lionel Vidal Reply-To: nessus@free.fr X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out Pierre Abbat wrote: >What is the default stress of cmene that >* have a diphthong including 'y' in the penult? e.g. maluykon. >* have a penult with 'y' and no antepenult? e.g. lylun. >* have 'y' the ult? e.g. kokakolys. >Are two cmene considered the same if they differ only in stress? If they >differ only in whether the stress is written? What about two cmene which >differ by a comma, such that the resulting stress is moved? e.g. djeimstaun., >djeimsta,un. > > As commas are never required (CLL p32), [djeimstaun.] and [djeimsta,un] are the same, whatever default stress you put on them. Hence more generally, to be consistent, we should infer that two cmenes differing only in stress should be the same. But then, if this conclusion holds, the default stress does not matter at all in cmenes :-) and your first questions need no answers :-) Nonetheless, as an indication for a reader to pronounce a cmene correctly where stress may matter (let's say in a poem, with stress giving the rythm), I think we should strictly follow the simple rule that all cmenes are by default stressed on the penultimate syllable, whatever it is. I do not see any point in writing syllabic consonants or buffers in cmene, and by default all syllables in cmene should be considered as true syllables. This is consistent with point 4 of CLL p.66 In any cases, it is the responsability of the writer to overspecify stress if he/she thinks it matters, when say, a syllable with 'y' will be unusually stressed by default. Thus: maluykon -> malUYkon, lylun -> lYlun, kokakolys -> kokakOlys Best wishes, Lionel