From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun May 04 08:55:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 4 May 2003 15:55:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 89193 invoked from network); 4 May 2003 15:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2003 15:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2003 15:55:09 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19CLpV-0005cD-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:55:09 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CLpL-0005bu-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:54:59 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 04 May 2003 08:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CLpA-0005bl-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:54:48 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h44G4g67073753 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 11:04:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h44G4gZS073752 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 4 May 2003 11:04:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 11:04:42 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) Message-ID: <20030504160442.GA73599@allusion.net> References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <3EB53281.2060300@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EB53281.2060300@free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-archive-position: 5108 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 04, 2003 at 05:32:17PM +0200, Lionel Vidal wrote: > Pierre Abbat wrote: > >What is the default stress of cmene that > >* have a diphthong including 'y' in the penult? e.g. maluykon. > >* have a penult with 'y' and no antepenult? e.g. lylun. > >* have 'y' the ult? e.g. kokakolys. > >Are two cmene considered the same if they differ only in stress? If they= =20 > >differ only in whether the stress is written? What about two cmene which= =20 > >differ by a comma, such that the resulting stress is moved? e.g.=20 > >djeimstaun., djeimsta,un. > >=20 > > > As commas are never required (CLL p32), [djeimstaun.] and [djeimsta,un]=20 > are the same, [...] That makes no sense. {djeimstaun.} and {djeimsta,un.} are pronounced differently. As far as I'm concerned they are most certainly different cmene. If not, all our diphthongs can at any time be arbitrarily fucked with because "commas don't matter". For example: fai could be supposedly rewritten as fa,i A valid pronounciation of {fa,i} is to use the fricative you use for the apostrophe[1], so it could sound like {fa'i} when spoken. Well, {fa'i} and {fai} are different words and mean different things. Lojban purports to be AVI, so obviously {fai} cannot be rewritten as {fa,i} without breaking that. So CLL is either wrong or perhaps that rule should be interpreted in the context of: Otherwise, a comma is usually only used to clarify the presence of syllabic ``l'', ``m'', ``n'', or ``r'' (discussed later). Commas are never required:= no two Lojban words differ solely because of the presence or placement of a co= mma. Perhaps this was intending to refer to commas which don't change the pronunciation of the word, and only clarify syllabic consonants. E.g. s/Commas are never required/These commas are never required/. But no one *actually* uses commas this way anyway. They only really use them to split up diphthongs (in cmene). [1] "It is always legal to use the apostrophe (IPA [h]) sound in pronouncing a comma." in CLL chap3. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+tToaDrrilS51AZ8RAvaXAKCCBezhv7exCZWLLv5/YlnOpnsiOgCgt5/M 9R4YqeGQ3qCAqPSn6MncHjc= =Slld -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun May 04 08:55:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 4 May 2003 15:55:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 89193 invoked from network); 4 May 2003 15:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2003 15:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2003 15:55:09 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19CLpV-0005cD-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:55:09 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CLpL-0005bu-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:54:59 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 04 May 2003 08:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CLpA-0005bl-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 08:54:48 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h44G4g67073753 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 11:04:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h44G4gZS073752 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 4 May 2003 11:04:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 11:04:42 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) Message-ID: <20030504160442.GA73599@allusion.net> References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <3EB53281.2060300@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EB53281.2060300@free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-archive-position: 5108 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 04, 2003 at 05:32:17PM +0200, Lionel Vidal wrote: > Pierre Abbat wrote: > >What is the default stress of cmene that > >* have a diphthong including 'y' in the penult? e.g. maluykon. > >* have a penult with 'y' and no antepenult? e.g. lylun. > >* have 'y' the ult? e.g. kokakolys. > >Are two cmene considered the same if they differ only in stress? If they= =20 > >differ only in whether the stress is written? What about two cmene which= =20 > >differ by a comma, such that the resulting stress is moved? e.g.=20 > >djeimstaun., djeimsta,un. > >=20 > > > As commas are never required (CLL p32), [djeimstaun.] and [djeimsta,un]=20 > are the same, [...] That makes no sense. {djeimstaun.} and {djeimsta,un.} are pronounced differently. As far as I'm concerned they are most certainly different cmene. If not, all our diphthongs can at any time be arbitrarily fucked with because "commas don't matter". For example: fai could be supposedly rewritten as fa,i A valid pronounciation of {fa,i} is to use the fricative you use for the apostrophe[1], so it could sound like {fa'i} when spoken. Well, {fa'i} and {fai} are different words and mean different things. Lojban purports to be AVI, so obviously {fai} cannot be rewritten as {fa,i} without breaking that. So CLL is either wrong or perhaps that rule should be interpreted in the context of: Otherwise, a comma is usually only used to clarify the presence of syllabic ``l'', ``m'', ``n'', or ``r'' (discussed later). Commas are never required:= no two Lojban words differ solely because of the presence or placement of a co= mma. Perhaps this was intending to refer to commas which don't change the pronunciation of the word, and only clarify syllabic consonants. E.g. s/Commas are never required/These commas are never required/. But no one *actually* uses commas this way anyway. They only really use them to split up diphthongs (in cmene). [1] "It is always legal to use the apostrophe (IPA [h]) sound in pronouncing a comma." in CLL chap3. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+tToaDrrilS51AZ8RAvaXAKCCBezhv7exCZWLLv5/YlnOpnsiOgCgt5/M 9R4YqeGQ3qCAqPSn6MncHjc= =Slld -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o--