From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon May 05 08:52:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 15:52:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 11487 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 15:52:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 15:52:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 15:52:24 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19CiGN-0000xb-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 May 2003 08:52:23 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CiG5-0000xI-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 08:52:05 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 05 May 2003 08:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CiFr-0000x9-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 05 May 2003 08:51:51 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h45G1o67068449 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 11:01:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h45G1okc068448 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 11:01:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:01:50 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) Message-ID: <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <20030504160442.GA73599@allusion.net> <3EB5402C.3060607@free.fr> <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-archive-position: 5128 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 09:58:18AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Sunday 04 May 2003 12:30, Lionel Vidal wrote: > > Well, my mistake. You are quite right of course, and although I was les= s > > than half serious in my first paragraph, I should not have drawn > > non-sensical conclusions for the pleasure of a bad joke. (And anyway > > I did realise too late it was non-sensical). > > > > I still think my proposals for default stress on cmene is a good > > solution though. > > And I still think that two cmenes should not be considered different if > > they differ > > only in stress. >=20 > I see two possibilities: > 1. Two cmene differing only in stress are the same. Commas are ignored. > 2. Two cmene differing only in stress are different. Commas are ignored u= nless=20 > they change the syllabication of vowels. > The problem with 2 is that syllabication of vowels can be changed without= =20 > changing the sound of the word, e.g. {malau,is} vs. {mala,uis}. malau,is. is different from mala,uis. if you pronounce it correctly. > As to the ,=3D' rule, I think it's a mistake. Apostrophes are always=20 > distinctive, whereas commas are not. {malauis} =3D {malau,is} <> {malau'i= s}. I've prooved commas must be distinctive. ,=3D' is a more sane rule than the commas-don't-matter rule; it takes precedence. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+toruDrrilS51AZ8RAm2YAJ9wPRyYQGHB/BfepKcFPYgX6aHfqQCfcmWa rDIBOhwRK/xdcD2DjwdWNOI= =VrU3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X-- From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon May 05 08:52:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 15:52:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 11487 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 15:52:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 15:52:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 15:52:24 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19CiGN-0000xb-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 May 2003 08:52:23 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CiG5-0000xI-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 08:52:05 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 05 May 2003 08:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CiFr-0000x9-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 05 May 2003 08:51:51 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h45G1o67068449 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 11:01:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h45G1okc068448 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 11:01:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:01:50 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) Message-ID: <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <20030504160442.GA73599@allusion.net> <3EB5402C.3060607@free.fr> <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-archive-position: 5128 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 09:58:18AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Sunday 04 May 2003 12:30, Lionel Vidal wrote: > > Well, my mistake. You are quite right of course, and although I was les= s > > than half serious in my first paragraph, I should not have drawn > > non-sensical conclusions for the pleasure of a bad joke. (And anyway > > I did realise too late it was non-sensical). > > > > I still think my proposals for default stress on cmene is a good > > solution though. > > And I still think that two cmenes should not be considered different if > > they differ > > only in stress. >=20 > I see two possibilities: > 1. Two cmene differing only in stress are the same. Commas are ignored. > 2. Two cmene differing only in stress are different. Commas are ignored u= nless=20 > they change the syllabication of vowels. > The problem with 2 is that syllabication of vowels can be changed without= =20 > changing the sound of the word, e.g. {malau,is} vs. {mala,uis}. malau,is. is different from mala,uis. if you pronounce it correctly. > As to the ,=3D' rule, I think it's a mistake. Apostrophes are always=20 > distinctive, whereas commas are not. {malauis} =3D {malau,is} <> {malau'i= s}. I've prooved commas must be distinctive. ,=3D' is a more sane rule than the commas-don't-matter rule; it takes precedence. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+toruDrrilS51AZ8RAm2YAJ9wPRyYQGHB/BfepKcFPYgX6aHfqQCfcmWa rDIBOhwRK/xdcD2DjwdWNOI= =VrU3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X--