From phma@webjockey.net Mon May 05 15:15:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 22:15:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 41606 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 22:15:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 22:15:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 22:15:02 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19CoEg-0002WX-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:15:02 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CoER-0002W9-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:14:47 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 05 May 2003 15:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 208-150-110-21-adsl.precisionet.net ([208.150.110.21] helo=blackcat.ixazon.lan) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CoEF-0002Vg-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:14:35 -0700 Received: by blackcat.ixazon.lan (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D3B052EFD; Mon, 5 May 2003 21:10:10 +0000 (UTC) Organization: dis To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:10:10 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> In-Reply-To: <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305051710.10365.phma@webjockey.net> X-archive-position: 5131 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@webjockey.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Pierre Abbat Reply-To: phma@webjockey.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92712300 On Monday 05 May 2003 12:01, Jordan DeLong wrote: > On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 09:58:18AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > The problem with 2 is that syllabication of vowels can be changed without > > changing the sound of the word, e.g. {malau,is} vs. {mala,uis}. > > malau,is. is different from mala,uis. if you pronounce it correctly. I can't hear the difference, but I can hear the difference between {kiku,ius} and {kikui,us}. That still doesn't mean that they are different words. > > As to the ,=' rule, I think it's a mistake. Apostrophes are always > > distinctive, whereas commas are not. {malauis} = {malau,is} <> > > {malau'is}. > > I've prooved commas must be distinctive. ,=' is a more sane rule > than the commas-don't-matter rule; it takes precedence. You haven't proved that. To prove it, you have to exhibit two different words which differ only in commas. If indeed commas matter, then {kikui,us} and {malau,is} are not words, whereas if they don't then they are the same as {kiku,ius} and {mala,uis}, which are words, so we haven't found a comma minimal pair. Even if both the forms differing by commas are both words, and have different meanings, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are different words, as names are allowed to be polysemous. This is a matter for the VTPFK. Nora should have some insight into the question. phma -- .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga .icu'u la ma'atman. From phma@webjockey.net Mon May 05 15:15:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 22:15:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 41606 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 22:15:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 22:15:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 22:15:02 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19CoEg-0002WX-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:15:02 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CoER-0002W9-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:14:47 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 05 May 2003 15:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 208-150-110-21-adsl.precisionet.net ([208.150.110.21] helo=blackcat.ixazon.lan) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CoEF-0002Vg-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:14:35 -0700 Received: by blackcat.ixazon.lan (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D3B052EFD; Mon, 5 May 2003 21:10:10 +0000 (UTC) Organization: dis To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:10:10 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> In-Reply-To: <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305051710.10365.phma@webjockey.net> X-archive-position: 5131 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@webjockey.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Pierre Abbat Reply-To: phma@webjockey.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92712300 On Monday 05 May 2003 12:01, Jordan DeLong wrote: > On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 09:58:18AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > The problem with 2 is that syllabication of vowels can be changed without > > changing the sound of the word, e.g. {malau,is} vs. {mala,uis}. > > malau,is. is different from mala,uis. if you pronounce it correctly. I can't hear the difference, but I can hear the difference between {kiku,ius} and {kikui,us}. That still doesn't mean that they are different words. > > As to the ,=' rule, I think it's a mistake. Apostrophes are always > > distinctive, whereas commas are not. {malauis} = {malau,is} <> > > {malau'is}. > > I've prooved commas must be distinctive. ,=' is a more sane rule > than the commas-don't-matter rule; it takes precedence. You haven't proved that. To prove it, you have to exhibit two different words which differ only in commas. If indeed commas matter, then {kikui,us} and {malau,is} are not words, whereas if they don't then they are the same as {kiku,ius} and {mala,uis}, which are words, so we haven't found a comma minimal pair. Even if both the forms differing by commas are both words, and have different meanings, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are different words, as names are allowed to be polysemous. This is a matter for the VTPFK. Nora should have some insight into the question. phma -- .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga .icu'u la ma'atman.