From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon May 05 15:40:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 22:40:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 74541 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 22:40:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 22:40:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 22:40:35 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19CodP-0002kA-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:40:35 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CodI-0002jm-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:40:28 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 05 May 2003 15:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp6.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.22.28] helo=mwinf0305.wanadoo.fr) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Cod6-0002jU-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:40:16 -0700 Received: from mwinf0303.wanadoo.fr (mwinf0303 [172.22.134.25]) by mwinf0305.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0B47E61C4ECB for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 21:55:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from free.fr (AMontpellier-104-1-2-80.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.221.80]) by mwinf0303.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 366CC500086C for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 21:53:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3EB6C10D.2080306@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:52:45 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <20030504160442.GA73599@allusion.net> <3EB5402C.3060607@free.fr> <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> In-Reply-To: <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-archive-position: 5133 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: nessus@free.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Lionel Vidal From: Lionel Vidal Reply-To: nessus@free.fr X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out Pierre Abbat wrote: >I see two possibilities: >1. Two cmene differing only in stress are the same. Commas are ignored. > I'm not sure I understand what you mean: commas can change the sounds of the word and so cannot be ignored. (and you may need them at first anyway, to determine the default stress). >2. Two cmene differing only in stress are different. Commas are ignored unless >they change the syllabication of vowels. >The problem with 2 is that syllabication of vowels can be changed without >changing the sound of the word, e.g. {malau,is} vs. {mala,uis}. > > But the sound are different in that case, and so I think we have different cmene. I prefer this possibility, but I would avoid reference to syllabication, which may prove difficult to define precisely. Why not just: consider two cmene differing only in stress the same. (and as always use commas to determine the intended pronouncation and the stress if not already indicated) Note that my main motivation for that rule is a practical one, as we have a tendency to put stress on names according to our native language usage, especially if the name does exist in our language with the same pronouncation. >As to the ,=' rule, I think it's a mistake. Apostrophes are always >distinctive, whereas commas are not. > > > I agree. Allowing a comma to be pronounced as an already assigned phonem (' or anything else already assigned) gains very little IMO in term of ease for a speaker and looses big in terms of potential ambiguity and added complexity of morphology. Best wishes, Lionel From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon May 05 15:40:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 22:40:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 74541 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 22:40:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 22:40:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 22:40:35 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19CodP-0002kA-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:40:35 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CodI-0002jm-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:40:28 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 05 May 2003 15:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp6.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.22.28] helo=mwinf0305.wanadoo.fr) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Cod6-0002jU-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:40:16 -0700 Received: from mwinf0303.wanadoo.fr (mwinf0303 [172.22.134.25]) by mwinf0305.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0B47E61C4ECB for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 21:55:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from free.fr (AMontpellier-104-1-2-80.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.221.80]) by mwinf0303.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 366CC500086C for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 21:53:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3EB6C10D.2080306@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:52:45 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <20030504160442.GA73599@allusion.net> <3EB5402C.3060607@free.fr> <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> In-Reply-To: <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-archive-position: 5133 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: nessus@free.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Lionel Vidal From: Lionel Vidal Reply-To: nessus@free.fr X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out Pierre Abbat wrote: >I see two possibilities: >1. Two cmene differing only in stress are the same. Commas are ignored. > I'm not sure I understand what you mean: commas can change the sounds of the word and so cannot be ignored. (and you may need them at first anyway, to determine the default stress). >2. Two cmene differing only in stress are different. Commas are ignored unless >they change the syllabication of vowels. >The problem with 2 is that syllabication of vowels can be changed without >changing the sound of the word, e.g. {malau,is} vs. {mala,uis}. > > But the sound are different in that case, and so I think we have different cmene. I prefer this possibility, but I would avoid reference to syllabication, which may prove difficult to define precisely. Why not just: consider two cmene differing only in stress the same. (and as always use commas to determine the intended pronouncation and the stress if not already indicated) Note that my main motivation for that rule is a practical one, as we have a tendency to put stress on names according to our native language usage, especially if the name does exist in our language with the same pronouncation. >As to the ,=' rule, I think it's a mistake. Apostrophes are always >distinctive, whereas commas are not. > > > I agree. Allowing a comma to be pronounced as an already assigned phonem (' or anything else already assigned) gains very little IMO in term of ease for a speaker and looses big in terms of potential ambiguity and added complexity of morphology. Best wishes, Lionel