From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon May 05 15:52:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 22:52:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 40170 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 22:45:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 22:45:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 22:45:17 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19Cohx-0002mc-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:45:17 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Cohr-0002mI-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:45:11 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 05 May 2003 15:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Cohf-0002m1-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:44:59 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h45Msv67071299 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 17:54:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h45Msv9A071298 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 17:54:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:54:57 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) Message-ID: <20030505225457.GA71163@allusion.net> References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> <200305051710.10365.phma@webjockey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305051710.10365.phma@webjockey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-archive-position: 5134 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 05:10:10PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Monday 05 May 2003 12:01, Jordan DeLong wrote: > > On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 09:58:18AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > > The problem with 2 is that syllabication of vowels can be changed wit= hout > > > changing the sound of the word, e.g. {malau,is} vs. {mala,uis}. > > > > malau,is. is different from mala,uis. if you pronounce it correctly. >=20 > I can't hear the difference, but I can hear the difference between {kiku,= ius}=20 > and {kikui,us}. That still doesn't mean that they are different words. I can hear the difference. The "w" sound moves across syllables. > > > As to the ,=3D' rule, I think it's a mistake. Apostrophes are always > > > distinctive, whereas commas are not. {malauis} =3D {malau,is} <> > > > {malau'is}. > > > > I've prooved commas must be distinctive. ,=3D' is a more sane rule > > than the commas-don't-matter rule; it takes precedence. >=20 > You haven't proved that. To prove it, you have to exhibit two different w= ords=20 > which differ only in commas. If indeed commas matter, then {kikui,us} and= =20 > {malau,is} are not words, whereas if they don't then they are the same as= =20 > {kiku,ius} and {mala,uis}, which are words, so we haven't found a comma=20 > minimal pair. Even if both the forms differing by commas are both words, = and=20 > have different meanings, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are=20 > different words, as names are allowed to be polysemous. [...] I proved that it would break AVI to say commas don't matter because of the pronunciation rules. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+tuvBDrrilS51AZ8RAgLGAKCI6mR4NTuNt/cLOq20uTCYKNcOZQCgyI3N GESpw0d7YZ+E0otfW0aYHnk= =oYQ3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6-- From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon May 05 15:52:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 5 May 2003 22:52:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 40170 invoked from network); 5 May 2003 22:45:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2003 22:45:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2003 22:45:17 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19Cohx-0002mc-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:45:17 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Cohr-0002mI-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:45:11 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 05 May 2003 15:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Cohf-0002m1-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 05 May 2003 15:44:59 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h45Msv67071299 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 17:54:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h45Msv9A071298 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 17:54:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:54:57 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) Message-ID: <20030505225457.GA71163@allusion.net> References: <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> <200305051710.10365.phma@webjockey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305051710.10365.phma@webjockey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-archive-position: 5134 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 05:10:10PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Monday 05 May 2003 12:01, Jordan DeLong wrote: > > On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 09:58:18AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > > The problem with 2 is that syllabication of vowels can be changed wit= hout > > > changing the sound of the word, e.g. {malau,is} vs. {mala,uis}. > > > > malau,is. is different from mala,uis. if you pronounce it correctly. >=20 > I can't hear the difference, but I can hear the difference between {kiku,= ius}=20 > and {kikui,us}. That still doesn't mean that they are different words. I can hear the difference. The "w" sound moves across syllables. > > > As to the ,=3D' rule, I think it's a mistake. Apostrophes are always > > > distinctive, whereas commas are not. {malauis} =3D {malau,is} <> > > > {malau'is}. > > > > I've prooved commas must be distinctive. ,=3D' is a more sane rule > > than the commas-don't-matter rule; it takes precedence. >=20 > You haven't proved that. To prove it, you have to exhibit two different w= ords=20 > which differ only in commas. If indeed commas matter, then {kikui,us} and= =20 > {malau,is} are not words, whereas if they don't then they are the same as= =20 > {kiku,ius} and {mala,uis}, which are words, so we haven't found a comma=20 > minimal pair. Even if both the forms differing by commas are both words, = and=20 > have different meanings, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are=20 > different words, as names are allowed to be polysemous. [...] I proved that it would break AVI to say commas don't matter because of the pronunciation rules. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+tuvBDrrilS51AZ8RAgLGAKCI6mR4NTuNt/cLOq20uTCYKNcOZQCgyI3N GESpw0d7YZ+E0otfW0aYHnk= =oYQ3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6--