From lojbab@lojban.org Tue May 06 05:34:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 12:34:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 70501 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 12:34:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 12:34:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao02.cox.net) (68.1.17.243) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 12:34:13 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.92.1]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030506123412.RUSX24359.lakemtao02.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:34:12 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030506074032.0348f2e0@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:07:27 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [lojban] Re: Some ideas/questions (long) In-Reply-To: References: <20030506003536.GC27938@ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 08:49 PM 5/5/03 -0400, Craig wrote: > >> 1. The courts have ruled that you can't copyright a language. This is how > >> Lojban is legal, when it is an offshoot of Loglan. > > >What the court ruled was that "Loglan" was a generic term and not > >trademarkable, that's all. The question of copyrightability was > >not challenged by the LLG because the words had already been remade. > >But we copied most of the grammar, no? Oskar's proposed new language would >not have all its words in common with lojban - it couldn't, as they would be >monosyllables. The grammar design and concepts were recovered, but not copied. I devised the YACC grammar from scratch, aided by Jeff Taylor and Jeff Prothero and later by John Cowan who took the job over. I explicit avoided copying the original text and even the elements of that text. The rule of copyright in the US is that an algorithm or idea cannot be copyrighted, but only the expression of that idea in a medium. Since in fact I knew nothing of YACC when I started, there was a lot of groping in the dark at first. However, Taylor had gotten his Masters Degree by devising a from-scratch SLR1 formal grammar for TLI Loglan, and he taught me how to go about building a grammar piece by piece. Meanwhile, we had secondary coverage on this because Jeff Prothero was himself the one who devised the first successful TLI Loglan YACC grammar covering the bulk of the language (others had done pieces of the language) while a student at the U of Washington, and he had never signed any rights over to TLI. Prothero in particular invented the use of the "error" token to define elidable terminators which is a key feature that TLI Loglan and Lojban both share. Prothero expressly gave us permission in case it proved needed, and also made it clear to JCB that if he challenged Prothero's prior rights to use the grammar, Prothero would turn the matter over to the U of Washington which would have prior rights to TLI over any copyright deriving from a student's work using campus assets. This killed the copyright issue of the grammar, EXCEPT perhaps to the exact statement of that grammar in TLI's public works. As to the specific topic at hand, copyright is not an issue because the Lojban design has expressly been placed in the public domain to make sure that it cannot be an issue. Some specific documents, like CLL, are copyrighted as DESCRIPTIONS of the grammar, but word lists and the YACC grammar are completely free for use. Note that in Britain and possible other countries, somewhat tougher standards exist on derivative works than in the US. But our express placement of materials into the public domain should prevent questions even there. For someone wanting monosyllables with no lujvo, BTW, the idea is old and there already is a conlang developed on that basis. Rex May's Ceqli started as precisely this modification to TLI Loglan. I have no idea how his current language relates to Loglan or Lojban though. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org From lojbab@lojban.org Tue May 06 05:34:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 12:34:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 70501 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 12:34:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 12:34:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao02.cox.net) (68.1.17.243) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 12:34:13 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.92.1]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030506123412.RUSX24359.lakemtao02.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:34:12 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030506074032.0348f2e0@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:07:27 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [lojban] Re: Some ideas/questions (long) In-Reply-To: References: <20030506003536.GC27938@ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 08:49 PM 5/5/03 -0400, Craig wrote: > >> 1. The courts have ruled that you can't copyright a language. This is how > >> Lojban is legal, when it is an offshoot of Loglan. > > >What the court ruled was that "Loglan" was a generic term and not > >trademarkable, that's all. The question of copyrightability was > >not challenged by the LLG because the words had already been remade. > >But we copied most of the grammar, no? Oskar's proposed new language would >not have all its words in common with lojban - it couldn't, as they would be >monosyllables. The grammar design and concepts were recovered, but not copied. I devised the YACC grammar from scratch, aided by Jeff Taylor and Jeff Prothero and later by John Cowan who took the job over. I explicit avoided copying the original text and even the elements of that text. The rule of copyright in the US is that an algorithm or idea cannot be copyrighted, but only the expression of that idea in a medium. Since in fact I knew nothing of YACC when I started, there was a lot of groping in the dark at first. However, Taylor had gotten his Masters Degree by devising a from-scratch SLR1 formal grammar for TLI Loglan, and he taught me how to go about building a grammar piece by piece. Meanwhile, we had secondary coverage on this because Jeff Prothero was himself the one who devised the first successful TLI Loglan YACC grammar covering the bulk of the language (others had done pieces of the language) while a student at the U of Washington, and he had never signed any rights over to TLI. Prothero in particular invented the use of the "error" token to define elidable terminators which is a key feature that TLI Loglan and Lojban both share. Prothero expressly gave us permission in case it proved needed, and also made it clear to JCB that if he challenged Prothero's prior rights to use the grammar, Prothero would turn the matter over to the U of Washington which would have prior rights to TLI over any copyright deriving from a student's work using campus assets. This killed the copyright issue of the grammar, EXCEPT perhaps to the exact statement of that grammar in TLI's public works. As to the specific topic at hand, copyright is not an issue because the Lojban design has expressly been placed in the public domain to make sure that it cannot be an issue. Some specific documents, like CLL, are copyrighted as DESCRIPTIONS of the grammar, but word lists and the YACC grammar are completely free for use. Note that in Britain and possible other countries, somewhat tougher standards exist on derivative works than in the US. But our express placement of materials into the public domain should prevent questions even there. For someone wanting monosyllables with no lujvo, BTW, the idea is old and there already is a conlang developed on that basis. Rex May's Ceqli started as precisely this modification to TLI Loglan. I have no idea how his current language relates to Loglan or Lojban though. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org