From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue May 06 15:16:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 22:16:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 76440 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 21:50:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 21:50:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 21:50:56 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19DAKu-0006PF-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 06 May 2003 14:50:56 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19DAKl-0006Oq-00; Tue, 06 May 2003 14:50:47 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 06 May 2003 14:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.1.43]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19DAKa-0006Oe-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 06 May 2003 14:50:36 -0700 Received: from macsrule.com (125.107.26.24.cfl.rr.com [24.26.107.125]) by ms-smtp-01.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h46LoYwZ028036 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 17:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:50:29 -0400 Subject: [lojban] Re: modularity & grammar (was: RE: Re: nai in UI (was: BPFK phpbb) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030506081042.03492ec0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-archive-position: 5166 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rmcivor@macsrule.com Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Robert McIvor From: Robert McIvor Reply-To: rmcivor@macsrule.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out On Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 08:24 US/Eastern, Robert LeChevalier wrote: > In fact this is what happened in Lojban, but the complaint is invalid > because the bulk of the language was designed by JCB, who was not much > more computer literate than others of his generation, and was done by > hand without a computer. I rather think he was considerably more computer literate than most others of his generation, though it wasn't applied to Loglan until, I believe Sheldon Linker made the first suggestion to use YACC to prove the unambiguous nature of the grammar. I believe he used computer programmes extensively in testing Careers and its successors. > > The formalization of the grammar as a set of rules WAS done by > programmers, but JCB started with a corpus of > grammatical-by-definition sentences with parse structures that he > defined, and told the programmers to devise rules that would create > the desired parse. Only minor changes were made in the corpus over > the years other than to expand it. But from 1976 to 1983 or so, TLI > Loglan was defined by the corpus rather than by the YACC rules for > that corpus. This is true, and still is in 2003. Any modification to the parser must still parse the corpus,, which, as you say, has had only trivial changes to the original, and new additions to cover additional structures added to the language. > From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue May 06 15:16:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 22:16:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 76440 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 21:50:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 21:50:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 21:50:56 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19DAKu-0006PF-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 06 May 2003 14:50:56 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19DAKl-0006Oq-00; Tue, 06 May 2003 14:50:47 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 06 May 2003 14:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.1.43]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19DAKa-0006Oe-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 06 May 2003 14:50:36 -0700 Received: from macsrule.com (125.107.26.24.cfl.rr.com [24.26.107.125]) by ms-smtp-01.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h46LoYwZ028036 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 17:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:50:29 -0400 Subject: [lojban] Re: modularity & grammar (was: RE: Re: nai in UI (was: BPFK phpbb) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030506081042.03492ec0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-archive-position: 5166 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rmcivor@macsrule.com Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Robert McIvor From: Robert McIvor Reply-To: rmcivor@macsrule.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out On Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 08:24 US/Eastern, Robert LeChevalier wrote: > In fact this is what happened in Lojban, but the complaint is invalid > because the bulk of the language was designed by JCB, who was not much > more computer literate than others of his generation, and was done by > hand without a computer. I rather think he was considerably more computer literate than most others of his generation, though it wasn't applied to Loglan until, I believe Sheldon Linker made the first suggestion to use YACC to prove the unambiguous nature of the grammar. I believe he used computer programmes extensively in testing Careers and its successors. > > The formalization of the grammar as a set of rules WAS done by > programmers, but JCB started with a corpus of > grammatical-by-definition sentences with parse structures that he > defined, and told the programmers to devise rules that would create > the desired parse. Only minor changes were made in the corpus over > the years other than to expand it. But from 1976 to 1983 or so, TLI > Loglan was defined by the corpus rather than by the YACC rules for > that corpus. This is true, and still is in 2003. Any modification to the parser must still parse the corpus,, which, as you say, has had only trivial changes to the original, and new additions to cover additional structures added to the language. >