Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene)

From: Robert LeChevalier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:46:44 -0400

At 05:10 PM 5/5/03 -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> > > As to the ,=' rule, I think it's a mistake. Apostrophes are always
> > > distinctive, whereas commas are not. {malauis} = {malau,is} <>
> > > {malau'is}.
> >
> > I've prooved commas must be distinctive. ,=' is a more sane rule
> > than the commas-don't-matter rule; it takes precedence.
>
>You haven't proved that. To prove it, you have to exhibit two different words
>which differ only in commas. If indeed commas matter, then {kikui,us} and
>{malau,is} are not words, whereas if they don't then they are the same as
>{kiku,ius} and {mala,uis}, which are words, so we haven't found a comma
>minimal pair. Even if both the forms differing by commas are both words, and
>have different meanings, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are
>different words, as names are allowed to be polysemous.
>
>This is a matter for the VTPFK. Nora should have some insight into the
>question.

Nora didn't, but faced with apparent conflict between one rule in CLL which 
says that close-comma is equivalent to an apostrophe, and another which 
says that it is equivalent to omitting the comma, I checked back to see 
the document from which Cowan wrote those sections of CLL, the Synopsis of 
Lojban Phonology, Morphology, and Orthography, which was the first piece of 
Lojban baselined in 1991. (The synopsis actually predates Lojban, having 
been a non-TLI document about Loglan written by Chuck Barton in the early 
80s, and jointly rewritten by the two of us in 1987-8. It was the first 
published document about Lojban other than the brochure.)

Except for the muddled history of baselining decisions at LogFest that 
threw out all prior baselines when approving new ones without requiring 
baseline change documentation as we had practiced with the grammar, there 
should be nothing in CLL that contradicts the earlier baseline (one reason 
I am pushing for such careful documentation in any byfy changes.

At any rate, this conflict is clearly resolved in the historical record 
(and I will be providing Robin with the Synopsis and other historical 
documents for the web site, since some of them aren't there as I had thought).

For once supplication provides a documented resolution. See the two 
sections in the following marked with 5 asterisks.

>III.2 PERIODS, CLOSE-COMMAS,AND CONSONANTAL BUFFERS
>
>The three special characters in Lojban need special attention. They are 
>all used as indicators of a division between syllables, but each has a 
>different pronunciation, and each is used for different reasons:
>
>The period (.) indicates a glottal stop (defined below) or pause. In 
>addition to separating syllables, it indicates a separation into two words 
>as well, since pauses are not permitted inside of a word. . inside text 
>words thus indicates that two or more words have been written as a 
>compound, but should be spoken separately. . may be used outside of words 
>as an aid to readers, indicating a mandatory pause or glottal stop.
>
>The comma (,) embedded in a word is called a closed comma. Such a comma 
>is written to separate syllables, but indicates that there must be NO 
>pause between them, in contrast to the period. Between two consonants or 
>between a consonant and a vowel, this is straightforward. Between two 
>vowels, a comma indicates some type of glide is necessary to avoid a pause 
>that would split the two syllables into separate words. A semicolon is 
>used instead of a comma after a word to indicate optional pauses for phrasing.
>
>The apostrophe (') is also called the consonantal buffer. It is the 
>preferred solution to the problem of a syllable split between 
>vowels. Instead of using a close-comma, which forces an unspecified kind 
>of glide that could be misheard as a letter, the ' indicates a specific 
>sound, a rough breathing aspiration like a breathy English 'h' that is 
>represented in pronunciation guides as /h/.
>
>We will now discuss these three in more detail, giving some examples.
>
>A period (.) indicates a glottal stop or pause in Lojban. A glottal stop 
>is the catch in your throat that naturally occurs prior to the beginning 
>of a word (and sometimes a syllable) which starts with a vowel. Try saying:
>
> ah /.ah:/ (the ':' indicates that the preceding vowel is to 
> be drawn
> out or lengthened)
>
>Did you feel the catch in your throat at the beginning?
>
>A glottal stop is used in Lojban like a short pause, allowing a listener 
>to break up an otherwise unintelligible string of syllables into its 
>component words (parse - this term occurs often in Lojban discussions with 
>this meaning). Sometimes a longer pause is desirable. In such a case, a 
>writer will usually leave one or more spaces after the period. However, 
>the length of a pause is not significant in Lojban; a glottal stop is 
>equivalent to a longer pause, and you may insert any comfortable length 
>pause when you see a period.
>
>A period may be at the beginning or end of a word in print; the pause or 
>glottal stop is mandatory. In Lojban, more so than in English, these 
>pauses are significant in determining the meaning of a string of 
>sounds. Thus, for example, .i is often seen as the primary indicator of 
>the beginning of a new sentence. Without the pause, a Lojban listener may 
>not recognize the sentence break. We will use periods to represent 
>mandatory pauses in punctuation guides as well as in actual Lojban text.
>
>A period also may be found embedded in a word. When this happens, the 
>'word' is really two or more words, usually a compound cmavo composed of 
>smaller, related cmavo that interact in determining the grammar of a 
>sentence. Such a period is called a close-period. Like all other periods 
>in Lojban, it is pronounced as a glottal stop or pause, and it always 
>indicates the end of a word. It is preferable to use the short glottal 
>stop to a longer pause, as this conveys to the listener the interacting 
>relationship between the two words.
>
>When more than two vowels occur together in a cmavo compound in Lojban, 
>the normal pronunciation pairs vowels from the left into syllables, as in:
>
> meii /mei.ee/ where the 'ei' grouped together causes the 
> English /ei/ sound of "base". This example would appear to be the 
> compound of the two cmavo: mei and i. A pause (or glottal stop) must be 
> inserted between the /ei/ diphthong and the final /ee/ to keep each sound 
> distinct. This example could also have been written mei.i, using the 
> close-period. Since this makes reading easier, it is in fact 
> preferred. But, a Lojban reader who sees the cmavo compound meii knows 
> that /mei.ee/ is the only correct pronunciation.
>
>The close-period can override left-wise grouping:
>
> me.ii /meh.yee/ where the 'ii' is now grouped and pronounced as 
> /yee/. The word can now be seen as the compound of the two cmavo: me and 
> ii. The close-period thus forces a syllable and word break (and a pause 
> or glottal stop) to occur at a different point in the vowel string than 
> would otherwise occur.
>
>In longer strings of vowels in cmavo compounds, a Lojban reader will 
>continue grouping vowels in pairs from the close-period. Rarely, in very 
>complex vowel strings, more than one close-period might be found.
>
>Close-commas are found embedded with vocalic consonants (l, m, n, and r as 
>pronounced /l/, /m/, /n/, and /r/) in cmene (names) and in le'avla (Lojban 
>borrowings from other languages); they serve like close-periods to 
>indicate proper pronunciation. A comma embedded in a Lojban word 
>indicates a syllable break, as does a close-period. However, a 
>close-comma indicates that there should be no pause or glottal stop 
>between the two letters separated by the comma, and therefore that the 
>'word' truly is one word. See III.3 below for examples and notes of this 
>usage in normal Lojban words that have vocalic consonants. (Commas are 
>also used in pronunciation guides to separate syllables.)
>
>Close-commas are required in cmene instead of close-periods, since cmene 
>are not permitted to have embedded pauses or glottal stops. In the song 
>about Old MacDonald's Farm, the vowel string which is pronounced 
>/eey,yai,eey,yai,ou/ in English could be Lojbanized with periods as 
>i.ai.i.ai.o (/i.ai.i.ai.o/). However, this would sound clipped, staccato, 
>and unmusical compared to the English. Embedded in vowels within a 
>Lojbanized name, a close-comma must be pronounced as a vowel glide 
>(usually similar to the /y/ or /w/ in the English pronunciation above), 
>since no pause or glottal stop is permitted. The close-comma can be used 
>instead of a close-period: i,ai,i,ai,on is a valid, if strange, Lojban 
>name. The close-commas require a new syllable, but prohibit a pause or 
>glottal stop. The pronunciation thus may be /iy,yaiy,yiy,yaiy,yon/.
*****
>The use of close-commas in this way is risky to audio-visual isomorphism, 
>since glides can be heard by some as i and u. Some leeway is therefore 
>given with regard to audiovisual isomorphism in Lojbanized names to allow 
>them to be pronounced more like their native counterparts - the 
>close-comma is allowed to represent the glides or some non-Lojbanic 
>sound. In this special circumstance, the deviation affects only spelling 
>accuracy and the ability of a reader to replicate the desired 
>pronunciation; it does not affect the recognition of word boundaries. A 
>close-comma vowel glide may be pronounced as an apostrophe or consonantal 
>buffer (defined immediately below) as one of the options. It was this 
>usage, in fact, that led to the consonantal buffer as the generic solution 
>to such vowel glide problems while preserving isomorphism.
*****

>Close-commas may also occur between consonants in cmene and in le'avla 
>(borrowed brivla) to indicate variant syllabication of consonant 
>clusters. No glide or other sound is necessary in these locations.
>
>The consonantal buffer, represented by an apostrophe, is a third way of 
>breaking up vowel groupings into syllables, and is preferred in regular 
>Lojban cmene that are not attempting to match a non-Lojban 
>pronunciation. In other word forms, the consonantal buffer is the only 
>permitted way to split vowels - the close comma is not permitted - without 
>also causing a word break, as when the close-period is used to force a 
>glottal stop.
>
>The apostrophe lerfu (') is pronounced as a short, breathy, 'h' - the 
>so-called 'rough breathing' mark of ancient Greek and other 
>languages. English examples of this sound may be produced by saying a 
>quick, unstressed, "aha", or by saying "Oh hello" quickly with no pause 
>between the words. The consonantal buffer causes a speaker to aspirate 
>(breathe out) quickly between vowels, thus preventing a glottal stop. It 
>is thus the Lojban antithesis of the close-period, and indicates a vowel 
>pair that does not separate logically into two words. If the consonantal 
>buffer were used instead of a comma in the above vowel string example: 
>i'ai'i'ai'on, it would be pronounced /i,hai,hi,hai,hon/, which preserves 
>the rhythm and length, if not the exact sounds, of the original 
>English. Further examples of the consonantal buffer will be found in 
>III.3 below.
>
>The consonantal buffer is a consonant in nature, but is not treated as a 
>consonant or a vowel for purposes of Lojban morphology. It is included in 
>Lojban only to enable smooth separation between vowels, while clearly 
>joining the vowels in a single word.

*****
>As stated above, the close-comma may be pronounced as either a glide or a 
>consonantal buffer when between vowels in cmene. When the consonantal 
>buffer is required, such as in regular Lojban words, the apostrophe only 
>should be used to represent the mandatory sound.
*****

So clearly the intent in the language design is that pronunciation of a 
comma as an apostrophe (consonantal buffer) is ONLY permitted (and then 
merely as an option for speakers of languages that need it) in Lojbanized 
names (and usage has been to use an apostrophe in that situation). The 
baseline should therefore either eliminate the pronunciation as an 
apostrophe (if audiovisual isomorphism in names is deemed critical), or 
restrict that option only to names as a dispreferred option.

Hope this helps.
lojbab

-- 
lojbab [email-masked]
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

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From: Robert LeChevalier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:46:44 -0400

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Hope this helps.
lojbab