From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed May 07 00:55:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 7 May 2003 07:55:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 88575 invoked from network); 7 May 2003 07:55:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 May 2003 07:55:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 May 2003 07:55:58 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19DJmQ-0001mh-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 07 May 2003 00:55:58 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19DJmB-0001mO-00; Wed, 07 May 2003 00:55:43 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 07 May 2003 00:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.22.25] helo=mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19DJlx-0001mE-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 07 May 2003 00:55:29 -0700 Received: from free.fr (AMontpellier-104-1-18-181.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.241.181]) by mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id BEA1534000B4 for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 09:54:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3EB8BBA6.4060106@free.fr> Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:54:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) References: <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> <5.2.0.9.0.20030506201823.03f41d20@pop.east.cox.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030506201823.03f41d20@pop.east.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-archive-position: 5186 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: nessus@free.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Lionel Vidal From: Lionel Vidal Reply-To: nessus@free.fr X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out Robert LeChevalier wrote: > For once supplication provides a documented resolution. See the two > sections in the following marked with 5 asterisks. Thank you for having posted that: it is interresting to see the origin of some of the choices made in CLL. >> Close-commas may also occur between consonants in cmene and in le'avla >> (borrowed brivla) to indicate variant syllabication of consonant >> clusters. This one was kept in CLL and I don't like it: allowing variant syllabication in clusters, with all the buffered vowels it may imply, is the first step towards introducing potential discrepancies in the audiovisual-isomorphism, which I think is one of the strong point of lojban morphology. And what is the gain anyway: in case of clusters don't you think the resulting sounds should be the same, whatever the syllabication? > So clearly the intent in the language design is that pronunciation of a > comma as an apostrophe (consonantal buffer) is ONLY permitted (and then > merely as an option for speakers of languages that need it) in > Lojbanized names (and usage has been to use an apostrophe in that > situation). The baseline should therefore either eliminate the > pronunciation as an apostrophe (if audiovisual isomorphism in names is > deemed critical), or restrict that option only to names as a > dispreferred option. I would simplfy and not create an exception for cmene. It may even be helpful in some cases to recognise names. For instance the closest form of my own name in french would be {li,oNEL} (with a almost unmarked glide), and while I feel addressed when hearing {lioNEL}, {li,ioNEL}, and even {LAIionel} :-), something like {li'oNEL} or worse {li'Onel} sounds like somebody else to me. Probably an indirect effect of my native language morphology :-) Anyway, to enforce audiovisual isomorphism, I would propose to allow commas only as the mean to override left-wise grouping in vowels strings and to define its preferred pronouncation as being different from any other already used lojban phonem (any form of glide will do). But maybe that sounds too restrictive ? Best wishes, Lionel From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed May 07 00:55:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 7 May 2003 07:55:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 88575 invoked from network); 7 May 2003 07:55:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 May 2003 07:55:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 May 2003 07:55:58 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19DJmQ-0001mh-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 07 May 2003 00:55:58 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19DJmB-0001mO-00; Wed, 07 May 2003 00:55:43 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 07 May 2003 00:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.22.25] helo=mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19DJlx-0001mE-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 07 May 2003 00:55:29 -0700 Received: from free.fr (AMontpellier-104-1-18-181.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.241.181]) by mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id BEA1534000B4 for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 09:54:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3EB8BBA6.4060106@free.fr> Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:54:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: required commas (was Re: Stress of cmene) References: <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> <200305040821.28114.phma@webjockey.net> <200305050958.18927.phma@webjockey.net> <20030505160150.GA68381@allusion.net> <5.2.0.9.0.20030506201823.03f41d20@pop.east.cox.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030506201823.03f41d20@pop.east.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-archive-position: 5186 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: nessus@free.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Lionel Vidal From: Lionel Vidal Reply-To: nessus@free.fr X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out Robert LeChevalier wrote: > For once supplication provides a documented resolution. See the two > sections in the following marked with 5 asterisks. Thank you for having posted that: it is interresting to see the origin of some of the choices made in CLL. >> Close-commas may also occur between consonants in cmene and in le'avla >> (borrowed brivla) to indicate variant syllabication of consonant >> clusters. This one was kept in CLL and I don't like it: allowing variant syllabication in clusters, with all the buffered vowels it may imply, is the first step towards introducing potential discrepancies in the audiovisual-isomorphism, which I think is one of the strong point of lojban morphology. And what is the gain anyway: in case of clusters don't you think the resulting sounds should be the same, whatever the syllabication? > So clearly the intent in the language design is that pronunciation of a > comma as an apostrophe (consonantal buffer) is ONLY permitted (and then > merely as an option for speakers of languages that need it) in > Lojbanized names (and usage has been to use an apostrophe in that > situation). The baseline should therefore either eliminate the > pronunciation as an apostrophe (if audiovisual isomorphism in names is > deemed critical), or restrict that option only to names as a > dispreferred option. I would simplfy and not create an exception for cmene. It may even be helpful in some cases to recognise names. For instance the closest form of my own name in french would be {li,oNEL} (with a almost unmarked glide), and while I feel addressed when hearing {lioNEL}, {li,ioNEL}, and even {LAIionel} :-), something like {li'oNEL} or worse {li'Onel} sounds like somebody else to me. Probably an indirect effect of my native language morphology :-) Anyway, to enforce audiovisual isomorphism, I would propose to allow commas only as the mean to override left-wise grouping in vowels strings and to define its preferred pronouncation as being different from any other already used lojban phonem (any form of glide will do). But maybe that sounds too restrictive ? Best wishes, Lionel