From araizen@newmail.net Sat Feb 19 13:19:36 2000 X-Digest-Num: 369 Message-ID: <44114.369.2030.959273826@eGroups.com> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:19:36 +0200 From: "Adam Raizen" Subject: RE: Re: Subjunctives la and cusku di'e > From: "And Rosta" > > > From: "Adam Raizen" > > > > la xorxes cusku di'e > > > > > From: "Jorge Llambias" > > > > > > la adam cusku di'e > > > > > > >I disagree. It seems to me that the x1 of vanbi is the geneal way to > > > >express places like the x3 of binxo. In other words, "loi bisli cu > > > >binxo loi jaclitki le nu glare" doesn't necessarily mean that any ice > > > >actually becomes liquid water, if it never gets hot enough. Likewise > > > >if "vanbi" is the main bridi. Even when you use the tag "va'o" as in > > > >the above sentence, the main bridi is only being claimed under the > > > >condition of the tagged sumti, as if an "under conditions" place was > > > >added to the main bridi. > > > > > > I'm not sure why you say you disagree. I agree with what > > > you say, which means that va'o by itself, without da'i, > > > already tags a hypothetical. > > > > Maybe I misunderstood you, but I had thought that you had just > > said that you accepted that "va'o" without "da'i" claims the main > > bridi with the tagged sumti as its environment, whereas I was > > saying that the main bridi does not necessarily occur if what is > > tagged by "va'o" doesn't occur. > > I don't understand either of you. The main bridi is true only if the > va'o sumti obtains, but (at least without da'i -- I'm not sure what > difference it would make) "broda va'o le nu brode" claims that both > broda and brode obtain. Hence va'o would seem to be more appropriate > to translate "I work under difficult conditions" than "I work if > things are difficult". > It's possible to interpret 'vanbi' in that way, and it makes sense based on the keywords that define it ("environment/ surroundings/context/ambience"), but then it's not clear what the difference between 'vanbi' and 'tcini' is ("situation/condition/state/ position/are conditions/circumstances" [characteristics or environment of an object/event/process stage or state that are typically/potentially only temporary]), and it also takes away a non- logical way of saying 'if'. I think that it's better to interpret 'vanbi' as 'x1 are the conditions under which x2 occurs' or 'if x1 then x2 (non- logically)' and save your interpretation for tcini. Thus: mi gunka va'o le nu nandu le nu nandu cu vanbi le nu mi gunka "I work if things are difficult" and le nu nandu cu tcini le nu mi gunka "I work under difficult conditions" Of course, tcini doesn't have a BAI cmavo, but I think the BAI is more useful for vanbi. "da'i" would tag a construction which the speaker considers unlikely or impossible to happen. mi gunka va'oda'i le nu nandu le nu da'i nandu cu vanbi le nu mi gunka "I would work if things were difficult" In fact, "da'i" could probably be used for a type of "if" all by itself: .i da'i mi nolraitru le munje .i mi pa'erzu'e my .i mi zukte le nu la lojban cu bangu co catni my i.e. Pretend that I were king of the world. I would... but there might be a need to mark the scope of "da'i" better. co'o mi'e adam Adam Raizen araizen@newmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------- The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. --Robert Heinlein