Subject: Re: [lojban] cultural rafsi fu'ivla

From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 17:17:28 -0500

At 04:25 PM 03/02/2000 +0000, marios cmavirn wrote:
>.i la lojbab cusku di'e:
> >I am not sure what you would define as the "Caribbean" culture.

This is not denying that there is one, merely saying that I am not sure 
what it is. In part because it is not clear what the boundaries are. The 
Bahamas are not in the Caribbean Sea; are they part of the Caribbean 
culture? The Florida keys are; are they part of the Caribbean 
culture? (You answer this below in terms of the people of the culture 
itself, but we did not choose gismu on that basis). With other culture 
gismu we have some societal conventions that draw clear if arbitrary lines 
(but even then I recognize that the arbitrariness is a potential problem).

>I would really suggest to leave
>the question of wether a culture can identify as such up to the culture in
>question, and use this standard where these specific cultural fu'ivla are
>concerned.

That seems reasonable, especially for fu'ivla.

> I looked up ropno, bemro and xazdo in the gismu list which says:
>"x1 reflects European culture/nationality/geography/Indo-European languages
>in aspect x2" . Bemro: "x1 reflects North American culture/ nationality/
>geography in aspect x2". Even xazdo: x1 reflects Asiatic
>culture/nationality/geography in aspect x2. Can you imagine that the same
>way you look at us from up there, from down here I might question the
>existence of a common culture between US, Canadians and Mexicans. So let's
>not go there.

I agree, but I don't claim that there is a common culture to any of the 
above. The "cultural gismu" are not limited to culture, as is evident in 
the definition. The choice of which divisions of the world got gismu was 
arbitrary, based on geographical divisions and key languages and 
population, and was flawed at that.

>Geographically there is an ambiguity as the Antillean
>archipelago forms one arch from Cuba in the northwest through Trinidad in
>the south-east to Aruba in the southwest, but some islands are
>geographically part of south-america while others are considered part of
>north-america. The Bahamas are outside of the Caribbean arch, but consider
>themselves Caribbean. Same goes for the coastal countries of Belize and the
>Guyanas and for the Caribbean coasts of Venezuela, Colombia and Central
>America. in most Caribbean countries a European country may be the official
>language, but the mother tongue of most people is a creole. At least 16
>independent countries label themselves foremost as Caribbean and not as
>north-american, or hispanic.

Shows something about education, since here in the US, they call the 
islands the "West Indies", consider all of them part of North America, and 
would not consider any of the coastal countries any more Caribbean than any 
other. Indeed I am not sure why Belize and Guyana fit other than by 
exclusion from "Hispanic-America", whereas the other Central American 
states and the Yucatan do not.

>In the Caribbean we are accustomed to people from outside telling us what
>we are and should be. I don't worry about that. I just think that as lojban
>community we should strive maybe not that much for cultural neutrality, as
>that's a hard one, but more for pluriformity, as more southerners like me
>start joining up.

Pluriformity is welcomed.

lojbab
----
lojbab [email-masked]
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org (newly updated!)