From jjllambias@hotmail.com Thu Mar 09 06:53:56 2000 Received: (qmail 15245 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2000 14:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Mar 2000 14:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.240.159) by mta1.onelist.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 2000 14:53:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 52934 invoked by uid 0); 9 Mar 2000 22:57:44 -0000 Message-ID: <20000309225744.52933.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.128.10.26 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 09 Mar 2000 14:57:44 PST X-Originating-IP: [12.128.10.26] To: lojban@onelist.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Mass/Set Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 14:57:44 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-eGroups-From: "Jorge Llambias" From: "Jorge Llambias" la pyjym cusku diŽe >Just to clarify: {lei nanmu cu citka lo plise} is similar to saying >{su'o le nanmu cu citka lo plise}, except that it could also mean that >one or more apples were shared between the men. I think I agree, but to me the rule is what you call the exception. In any case, that is heavily context dependent. >I believe the important thing with masses is that the group when >considered a unit accomplished le nu citka lo plisa. Yes, I agree with that. >[Repeat in simple Lojban: > le nu lei nanmu cu citka lo plise kei > cu simsa > le nu lo plise cu fatra le nanmu The x2 of fatri has to be something with members, either {le'i nanmu} or, my preference, {lei nanmu}. Otherwise, you end up saying that for every x which is one of the men, an apple is shared among x. An apple shared among one man. > ni'o > mi jinvi le du'u > ro broda ro brode zo'u > le nu lei broda cu brode kei > cu nibli le nu > le girzu be fi le'i broda > cu gasnu le nu brode I think you have to use bu'a and bu'e instead of broda and brode. ro broda is "every thing that is a broda" and not "every predicate ŽbrodaŽ". Also, I'm not sure that gasnu is so general as to work for every predicate. In many cases the x1 is not an agent. I would rather say {le girzu cu ckaji le ka ce'u brode}. >I'm not sure whether or not {le nanmu cu bevri le bloti} requires that >the same boat(s) are carried by each man; the reference grammar has >conflicting statements on this question. (Now there's a troll.) Yes, each of the men has to carry each of the boats. > ni'o > .i mi na djuno le jei > le nu le nanmu cu bevri le bloti > cu nibli > le nu su'o nanmu su'o bloti cu bevri It does entail that (except for the veridicality issue), but that is not what you wondered in English. i le nu le nanmu cu bevri le bloti cu ca'a nibli le nu ro da poi cmima le'i nanmu ku'o ro de poi cmima le'i bloti zo'u da de bevri co'o mi'e xorxes ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com