Subject: Re: [lojban] A wide variety of comments...

From: Robin Lee Powell <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:15:58 -0500

>From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <[email-masked]>
>
>At 06:52 PM 03/18/2000 -0500, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>> >I doubt that it would be easy to get a license. The original stuff was
>> >done under contract and the KLI had to work for a while to get things set
>> >up to allow much of anyone other than Mark O. to publish about
>> >Klingon. But Mark Shoulson can probably comment on this better than anyone
>> >since he is a published Klingonist. Mark?
>>
>><nod> I was more interested, at this stage, in finding out whether
>>people found this to be an acceptable venue for meme propagation.
>
>The language is in the public domain. We couldn't and wouldn't try to stop 
>anyone.

<snort> If I was interested in being an asshole, I'd just announce that
I was doing this to the list and move on. I have absolutely _NO_
interest in doing something like this without the full backing of the
LLG, partly because I have absolutely no interest in doing the public
relations work involved in getting/maintaining the license. :-)

>>Note that there's no reason that the language has no be called
>>anything other than lojban: Vulcan is clearly an English speaker's
>>name for the planet/people/language, there's no reason the language of
>>that people would have that word in in, or even those sound. Qo'noS
>>notwithstanding.
>>
>> >In any event, if there was such a license, it would have to be such
>> >that it would not constrain use of Lojban in any way when not
>> >labelled as "Vulcan", and I doubt that Paramount would buy that
>> >idea.
>>
>><blink> I'm not aware of any such restrictions on Klingon. There's
>>nothing stopping me, for example, from putting up a translation of the
>>Anulindale in 'Marc Okrand's Space Language' on my web page, although
>>calling it 'Klingon' per se might be a problem. I've seen no sign
>>that even 'tHlingan Hol' (sp?) is trademarked.
>
>The primary advantage in tying any language to the Star Trek universe
>would be to use the name in promoting it, in which case it at minimum
>divides the community between those willing to abide by whatever terms
>Paramount would require for using the name, and those who would refuse.
>Anything written in "Mark Okrand's Space Language" will likely not be
>read by anyone but the author. Similarly, if a mass market "Vulcan"
>caught on, those calling it "Loglan" or "Lojban" would be separated
>just as Klingonists who eschewed the name "Klingon" completely from
>their vocabulary would be cut off from the mainstream and the mass
>market, and would meet with blank looks when they talked to the public
>referring to "tHlingan Hol" or "Mark Okrand's Space Language".

<nod> However, I think this could be largely mitigated by putting a big
note at the front of the book to the effect of "The Vulcan word for
Vulcan is not Vulcan, it's Foo. Our word for our race is Bar, and the
name of our language is lojban. Vulcan is a human word, and as a
learner of our ways, it behooves you not to use it". Problem solved,
no?

>All in all, while I'd be interested in Paramount's reaction to the
>idea, the perils of trademarks and other intellectual property law is
>something I think most Lojbanists would rather stay FAR away from, 

<nod> I'm inclined to agree with you, actually, on both points.

>such that I would likely have to disapprove while wishing we could get
>the benefits without the penalties. But as I said, my disapproval
>would not necessarily stop anything.

It would stop me, that's for damn sure. I have no interest in causing
another schism, thanks.

>People have talked about a Lojban MUD as well. If you have the wherewithal 
>to set it up, do so, and you can see who stops in. 

The MUD's there. Experimental, but people are certainly welcome to
visit. telnet to calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca port 7788. Note that it is
primarily a virtual representation of the school that hosts it. If
interest is sufficient, I'll make a lojban area.

[BIG SNIP; taking the word list discussion offline]

>> >If you like that site better, tell us why, and if others agree, we can
>> >include some of the features. So far, other than some criticism of colors
>>
>><BIG NOD> :-)
>
>Suggest alternatives. I am not an aesthete.

Anything other than flourescent green. How about no colors at all?

>> >and a request that I break up the roadmap file so that it is faster-loading
>> >from the main page, I have seen little in suggestions for improvement (I
>> >will now expect to be inundated %^).
>>
>>1. I hate frames. They're evil.
>
>There is a non-frame version. 

True. It took me a while, however, to figure out that I could get to
the stuff in the frames version through the 'Lojban File Server' link.

>The main reason for the frame version was to give the speedy access to
>the roadmap, which is what most people want who know what they are
>looking for. The non-frame version is basically the right frame page,
>and is quite similar to the Helsinki page. (Indeed I based it on a
>draft revision that Veijo implemented but has never put in place.) But
>you can get from there to the roadmap in one click.

<nod> But finding that one click was hard for me.

>>2. There's an extra <li> tag after the links page.
>>3. <font> tags are also evil.
>>4. The html uses tables for visual markup and seems like it's probably
>>computer generated.
>
>Yes. Feel free to edit the page the way you would like to see it, and if 
>your changes seem to be an improvement I will consider using them (it 
>would be helpful to know what you are changing, but technical cleanup of 
>the computer generated stuff is fine by me).

http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/rlpowell/lojban.html

The only substantial visual change is the common leftwise alignment of
the stuff in the middle, which I can fix if you like.

>I plan to take out the fonts. The font used is the one used in the printed 
>book, which happens to be one of those rare sans serif fonts that clearly 
>distinguishes capital I from lower case l even to us half-blind 
>old-folks. I had originally thought people wanted an interesting font 
>because of the positive feedback to the graphic text on the Helsinki 
>page. I can use a font command a lot easier than I can generate a graphic.

Umm, I'm not sure which font you're referring to here, but there are
extremely complex font tags scattered throughout your version of the
page. If you wanted to use one font throughout, there could be exactly
one font tag.

>>5. The wordlists on helsinki _rock_, as I've said.
>>6. I like the 'la lojban.' picture at the top of helsinki.
>>7. The lojban.org site seems to basically be a minimal bit of html
>>stuck on top of the file server, whereas the helsinki site has a fair
>>bit of stuff that's not in the file server.
>
>I'll include anything from Helsinki that people find useful. Several 
>different versions of the same file did not seem worth the space, and we 
>are close to the 50 Meg limit now.

<blink> Wow.

>>That's about it, I think.
>>
>>-Robin, hoping he's managed to not be egregiously offensive.
>
>Not hardly.

Good. I don't take criticism well, and tend to project. :-)

-Robin

-- 
http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rlpowell/ BTW, I'm male, honest.
As a member of the Hans Solo School of Action Before Thought, Welcome,
You've Got Male.