Subject: Re: [lojban] Sex words

From: "Daniel Gudlat" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:13:17 +0200

la brukcr. cusku di'e
> la kuot. Daniel Gudlat kuot. cusku di'e
> > la pycyn. cusku di'e

> > Disclaimer: I'm far from an expert in lojban, but I'll take a stab
at
> > it.
>
> A superfluous statement, I think :-) We're all learning here.

I gather as much, but I've been doing so for less than two months, hence
the disclaimer...

> > > Some words suggested, in need of definitions, explication, general
> > tidying.
> > > Brook Conner:
> > > glependo - "fuck-buddy" (but no derogatory connotations [makes
"fuck"
> > a bad
> > > choice in English -- gletu has none in Lojban, pc])
> > > gletu pendo
>
> Yes - that's why "fuck-buddy" was in quotes. It has an idiomatic use,
> especially among sexual minorities (gay, bisexual, bdsm, polyamory,
etc)
> as a friend with whom you have sex, but does not imply any sort of
> loving relationship or commitment or such.

Incidentally, that was exactly the meaning I took it to have, being
unaware of any other slang/jargon/whatever meaning of the word.

> > In English, like in most western languages, words describing things
> > sexual in nature either have derogatory connotations or are
> > clinical/medical in nature. So "fuck-buddy" for a
"sexual-intercourse
> > type-of friend" is as good as anything you may possibly come up
with.
>
> Agreed - it's why I was trying out lojban for these words in the first
> place - I've found most English words to either imply things you don't
> mean to (i.e., are overly specific) or to omit things you mean to
> include (i.e., are overly vague). la lojban. has the nice
characteristic
> (which lojbab really drove home for me, I think when I first posted
> this) of being exactly as vague as you want to be. Which sounds like
an
> oxymoron, but is exactly what I'm looking for...

This is one of the qualities that got me interested in lojban in the
first place: you can be exactly as vague as you deem it fit to be, and
whoever you communicate with should be absolutely clear about the degree
of vagueness involved.

<snip>

> > > cinprami - "sexualove" (?lover?pc)
> > > cinse prami
> >
> > I agree with pc, this would be a "sexual lover" (gismu list: x1
loves
> > x2, not **x1 is a love...)
>
> Again, exactly what I meant - a "sexualove" can refer either to a
person
> or a state. "sexualove" in quotes is more jargon, argot, this time
> specifically from the book "Polyamory" by Dr. Deborah Anapol. Of
course,
> she spends a fair amount of time explaining the word before using it.

Yes, "sexualove" can refer to a person as well as a state, but from what
I understand of english grammar rules I'd say that the person referred
to by the word "sexualove" would be "le se cinprami" in lojban, the 2nd
sumti place, no?

> Actually, wouldn't "mi cinprami do" translate equally well as "I am a
> sexual-lover of you" and "I sexually-love you"? You'd need cmavo to
make
> clear which one you meant, wouldn't you?

The two are equivalent, aren't they?

> > > pamgle - loving intercourse
> > > pamygletu - [same]
> > > prami gletu
> >
> > And by the same rules, this would be a "loving intercourse-haver". I
> > image you'd need an event abstractor to get to the suggested
meanings,
> > but then, I haven't yet started working through the lujvo making
> > rules...
>
> Again, see above. I think, without the cmavo, it could be translated
in
> English either way. "nu pamgle" is clearly an event, but "mi nu pamgle
> do" could mean "I have loving intercourse with you" or "I
> am-in-the-event-of loving intercourse with you".

I would translate it as "I am-the-event-of loving-intercourse with
you"...

> The lojban could mean
> either repetitive action or a singular event (and would require more
> cmavo for more specificity). Like oh crap, what's that word for the
> grammatical structure for repeated action - russian uses it - it's a
> distinction English doesn't make really at all (you need ancillary
> phrases to convey it) and lojban conveys or not, depending on the
cmavo present.

The difference between, e.g. russian "yekhat" (ye, kha, a, te, soft
sign) and "yezdit" (ye, ze, de, i, te, soft sign) (where is the nls when
you need it?), the former signifying a one time event, the latter a
habit/repetition. Like you said, as with all things, lojban (as opposed
to loglan) leaves those open unless specified.
Ummm, where were we?

> > > pedgle - friendly intercourse
> > > pe'ogle - [same]
> > > pe'ogletu - [same]
> > > pedgletu - [same]
> > > pendo gletu
> >
> > As a verb, yes. Again, strictly speaking this is a "friendly
> > intercourser", or am I missing something with these tanru/lujvo? "mi
> > pedgle do" would be "I friendly-fuck you", right?
>
> Again, I think it's a matter of the cmavo around it.

My point exactly. :-)

<more snippage>

> > > malpe'o fuck (presumably, fuck3, since pendo has not implication
of
> > > intercourse, pc)
> >
> > I tentatively agree: "derogatory friend" would presumably come close
to
> > the idea of "They are fucking their paying customers" when this is
> > uttered anywhere but inside a whore house. ;-)
>
> Or, as in the colloquial (American) English, "Fucker", when used to
> refer to a friend. As in "Hey, fucker, how are you doing?" No literal
> sexual intercourse is really implied in the English - it's like
> "bonehead" being used in a similar situation. The insult is not
literal
> (in English).

Doesn't really apply in lojban, AFAI understand. You could conceivably
say "coi doi la malpe'on." meaning "Greetings, you who I name
derogatory-friend" but where would be the sense in that? (unless the
person likes to call himself that)

> In lojban, it seems a bit clearer that the "malpe'o" in question has
> somehow done something wrong by you. As in referring to someone who's
> spreading rumors behind your back "That fucker is spreading lies about
> me!" "la malpe'o .... etc."

That would be the most proper meaning in lojban, if I understand
correctly.

> > > gletu appears to need some clarification, given the range of
> > activities that
> > > these (and the following) words suggest as possibly under it
(oral?
> > anal?
> > > digital (yes, including big toes or the athletically inclined)?
"clit
> > > bumping"? mechanical? self? -- I assume that these will make
cases
> > of
> > > German shepherds and sheep clear).
> >
> > I'm German, but I know neither the shepherds nor the sheep nor their
> > cases. Care to enlighten me?
>
> Um, not on this list :-) I suggest looking up "zoophilia" (and while
> you're at it, go for "coprophilia" too, just to get the breadth of
> activity covered by (some peoples') sexual activity - but don't ask me
> for help - not particularly my brand of kink).

Nor mine, either. Concerning the lookup: BTDTGTTS, it's not easy to
shock me...

<schnip>

> Personally, I would, in general, favor the broadest possible
> interpretation of the base gismu, so long as no gismu becomes
synonymous
> with any other. If you want specificity, use more (presumably
> clarifying) words.

My sentiments exactly.

> > Once this view has been taken, the rest would become a question of
> > building the proper tanru/lujvo:
> > "moklu gletu" mouth-kind-of sexing, oral sex
> > "ganxo gletu" anus-kind-of sexing, anal sex
> > "degji gletu" finger/toe-kind-of sexing, digital sex
> > would probably do the trick, or have I missed any pitfalls? If you
>
> They're still somewhat vague (as I see it), but again, that's the
issue
> : the base gismu are broad, and the more words you add, the more
> specific it gets. E.g., moklu ganxo gletu ("rim job", roughly).

They are about as vague as their English counterparts: "anal sex"
actually covers severel different things, although it does have a
"default" meaning of penile-anal sex. In lojban, I'd rather have the
words as broad as sensible, you can easily add more precision later, if
you so desire.

<more snippage: I'll leave the lujvo making to someone else>

co'o mi'e daniel
--
Daniel "Gudy" Gudlat
[email-masked]

No one pays me enough to speak for them, so I only speak for myself.