Subject: Re: [lojban] Sex words

From: Brook Conner <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:32:50 -0400

la kuot. Daniel Gudlat kuot. cusku di'e
> la brukcr. cusku di'e
> > la kuot. Daniel Gudlat kuot. cusku di'e
> > > la pycyn. cusku di'e
[....]
> > > > cinprami - "sexualove" (?lover?pc)
> > > > cinse prami
> > >
> > > I agree with pc, this would be a "sexual lover" (gismu list: x1
> loves
> > > x2, not **x1 is a love...)
> >
> > Again, exactly what I meant - a "sexualove" can refer either to a
> person
> > or a state. "sexualove" in quotes is more jargon, argot, this time
> > specifically from the book "Polyamory" by Dr. Deborah Anapol. Of
> course,
> > she spends a fair amount of time explaining the word before using it.
> 
> Yes, "sexualove" can refer to a person as well as a state, but from what
> I understand of english grammar rules I'd say that the person referred
> to by the word "sexualove" would be "le se cinprami" in lojban, the 2nd
> sumti place, no?

Mmmm, when used as a verb - "I sexualove you" it matches cinprami - the
x1 place is the active agent. As for use as a noun, this is where lojban
can be more specific than english.

le cinprami - the one named is the one doing the sexual loving.

le se cinprami - the one named is the recipient of the sexual loving.

So is "my lover" "le cinprami" or "le se cinprami"? It seems to me that
which you use depends on your intended meaning - does this person love
you (le cinprami) or do you love them? (le se cinprami).

> > Actually, wouldn't "mi cinprami do" translate equally well as "I am a
> > sexual-lover of you" and "I sexually-love you"? You'd need cmavo to
> make
> > clear which one you meant, wouldn't you?
> 
> The two are equivalent, aren't they?

To the extent that they *are* equivalent is the extent to which either
translation is legit. In English, though, there's subtle intimations of
the use of passive voice vs an active verb - this isn't reflected in the
lojban mi cinprami do.

[...]
> > Again, see above. I think, without the cmavo, it could be translated
> in
> > English either way. "nu pamgle" is clearly an event, but "mi nu pamgle
> > do" could mean "I have loving intercourse with you" or "I
> > am-in-the-event-of loving intercourse with you".
> 
> I would translate it as "I am-the-event-of loving-intercourse with
> you"...

Um, literally, yes. I might make an argument that this would (most
likely) be a case of poetic license :-) However, I haven't been
conversing with anyone in lojban during "nu pamgle" so I can't quite say
for sure :-)

> > The lojban could mean
> > either repetitive action or a singular event (and would require more
> > cmavo for more specificity). Like oh crap, what's that word for the
> > grammatical structure for repeated action - russian uses it - it's a
> > distinction English doesn't make really at all (you need ancillary
> > phrases to convey it) and lojban conveys or not, depending on the
> cmavo present.
> 
> The difference between, e.g. russian "yekhat" (ye, kha, a, te, soft
> sign) and "yezdit" (ye, ze, de, i, te, soft sign) (where is the nls when
> you need it?), the former signifying a one time event, the latter a
> habit/repetition. Like you said, as with all things, lojban (as opposed
> to loglan) leaves those open unless specified.
> Ummm, where were we?

Talking about pamgle and how "mi pamgle do" could translate into any
number of English phrases, all of which would be included in the concept
embodied by "mi pamgle do", but none of which would be exactly right.
Why? The lojban includes all the possible translations - addition of
cmavo weeds out translations from the set of possibilities.

[...]
> > > > malpe'o fuck (presumably, fuck3, since pendo has not implication
> of
> > > > intercourse, pc)
> > >
> > > I tentatively agree: "derogatory friend" would presumably come close
> to
> > > the idea of "They are fucking their paying customers" when this is
> > > uttered anywhere but inside a whore house. ;-)
> >
> > Or, as in the colloquial (American) English, "Fucker", when used to
> > refer to a friend. As in "Hey, fucker, how are you doing?" No literal
> > sexual intercourse is really implied in the English - it's like
> > "bonehead" being used in a similar situation. The insult is not
> literal
> > (in English).
> 
> Doesn't really apply in lojban, AFAI understand. You could conceivably
> say "coi doi la malpe'on." meaning "Greetings, you who I name
> derogatory-friend" but where would be the sense in that? (unless the
> person likes to call himself that)

The same point in saying "Hey, fuckhead!" to a friend you meet on the
street, especially when you're mad at them about something. You don't
literally mean this person is a fuckhead (whatever a "fuckhead"
literally is) - a concept conveyed in the English primarily through
intonation and context. With mabla as a generic derogatory word, you can
make your intent known (if you so desire). I.e., the juxtaposition of
mabla and pendo, as a contrast indicates that you most likely still
consider this person your friend, even though you're presently pissed at
them. 

Contrast this with "ko mabla do", which I'd translate (idiomatically) as
"fuck you!" or (more literally) "go fuck yourself!"

[...]

> > They're still somewhat vague (as I see it), but again, that's the
> issue
> > : the base gismu are broad, and the more words you add, the more
> > specific it gets. E.g., moklu ganxo gletu ("rim job", roughly).
> 
> They are about as vague as their English counterparts: "anal sex"
> actually covers severel different things, although it does have a
> "default" meaning of penile-anal sex.

Right - the lojban has no such default - "ganxo gletu" is "an
anal-kind-of sexual activity", covering the more specific:

moklu ganxo gletu - mouth-kind-of anal-kind-of sexual activity

degji ganxo gletu - finger-kind-of anal-kind-of sexual activity

pinji ganxo gletu - penile/clitoral-kind-of anal-kind-of sexual activity

natpinji ganxo gletu - penis-kind-of anal-kind-of sexual activity

fetpinji ganxo gletu - clitoris-kind-of anal-kind-of sexual activity

gerku ganxo gletu - dog-kind-of anal-kind-of sexual activity (which
could be literal or figurative, depending - add more words to be specific)

et ad absurdam....

> In lojban, I'd rather have the
> words as broad as sensible, you can easily add more precision later, if
> you so desire.

Makes sense to me....

Brook