From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Jun 04 12:41:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5480 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2000 19:41:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jun 2000 19:41:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO qg.egroups.com) (10.1.2.27) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2000 19:41:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 26906 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2000 19:41:09 -0000 Received: from hp.egroups.com (10.1.2.220) by iqg.egroups.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2000 19:41:09 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.10.69] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2000 19:41:09 -0000 Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 19:41:01 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: Again: transcription of Chinese cmene Message-ID: <8hebcd+24n4@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4c.654a977.266bfd24@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1325 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._T=FCting?=" la pycyn. pu ciska di'e: > No /sh/ in lojban, just /c/, and I don't think it can be syllabic. So, that > would give /cdjin/, which is illegal as a mixture of voiced and voiceless > (fortes and lenues) and so requires a breaker /y/. I am not sure that > /cydjin/ is all that bad, although it hurts Chinese ears, even for those eyes > used to see /i/ or /e/ or /u/ there. The other vowels remain a problem, too. Oh, yes, you're so right (sh was a silly typo), but there are still more serious problems as you pointed out. /j,djin./ could only solve the problem with adjacent (voiced and voiceless) consonants - and no good compromise anyway. /cydjin./ doesn't give the sound correctly (as pinyin: /shi/ has to be distinguished from pinyin: she=lb:/cy/ what about: /cr,djin./? But maybe the same problem with *both* consonants being syllabic! My last idea is: /cyr,djin./ (not too bad for not being mixed up with /she=cy/ - but in real pronunciation there is no /y/ at all. The Croatians BTW write /trg/=lb: zarci, the Romanians /târgu/ - it's about the same non- or semivowel. And problems are still going on: py: ri4 (sun/day), W.-G.: jih4??? and py: er4 (two) W.-G.: erh4 etc. (the latter could be /yr/, but the other one just /r/ :( - e.g. py: riben=Japan, W.-G.: jih-pen, lb: /r,byn/ co'o mi'e .aulun.