From jjllambias@hotmail.com Fri Jun 16 11:36:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12742 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2000 18:36:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 16 Jun 2000 18:36:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.240.201) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 Jun 2000 18:36:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 34626 invoked by uid 0); 16 Jun 2000 18:36:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20000616183612.34625.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.49.74.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:36:12 PDT X-Originating-IP: [200.49.74.2] To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Mi za'o klama Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:36:12 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed From: "Jorge Llambias" la pycyn cusku di'e >Yes, these are two pretty good contextless thoughts, the first maybe more >natural than the second (the goal is defined, so to speak, by destination >not >time). In both cases, the natural ending could be specified to clarify. Yes, I agree about that. As an aside, I'm glad that you accept that {broda } is a more precise form of { broda}, where the sumti is an appropriate reference point for the tag. This works for all tags except (at least in the official version of things) for {ba'o} and {pu'o}. For these two the tag of the sumti somehow is incorporated into the sumti itself instead of modifying the main selbri, so that {broda ba'o le nu brode} is supposed to mean something like {broda ca le nu ba'o brode} instead of a more precise form of {ba'o broda}. To avoid this inconsistency I simply use the form with {ca} and never use {ba'o} as a sumti tag. >This is also the case with contextualized version. I would put the second >case -- goes on to Pineville though aiming at Charlotte -- as {mi klama la >painvil la ralix za'o la charlyt} That one still sounds strange to me, but a little better than using {mi za'o klama la paivil} to mean going past Pineville. {klama} in Lojban is essentially different than English "go" because it has five arguments, whereas an English sentence normally has only one (as far as the effect of selbri modifiers goes at any rate). {mi za'o klama la painvil} means the same as {la painvil za'o se klama mi}, Pineville is still my destination. Maybe if I missed the exit I can make that claim to indicate that I'm turning back as soon as I can, but not just to indicate that I kept going. Only if Painville still remains my destination does za'o make sense to me. >After the natural end (completion) of a process, the continuation is of >some >dominant activity in the process, in the case of going to, traveling -- but >it may be described still process terms. A man who set out to build a >house >and then, when the house is built, starts building other things miles away, >can be said to keep on building, even though he is no longer building the >same house Yes, in English, where the predicate is just "building". But he cannot be said to keep on building the same house if he is building another one. There is nothing special about the x1 place in this respect. If the man could be said to be still building the house, then could we say that the man is still building the house when he sold it and someone else is now building? The house is still being built, but is the original man still building? Lojban predicates have several argument places (usually too many) and we can't do as if the tense applied to the predicate as if it only had one argument. >(a weak case, I admit, but there are surely some good ones). >Notice that the sentence does not say he is on his way to Pineville, only >that Pineville is the destination of his going, {za'o} then says that he >has >passed his detination (natural end point). I don't think {za'o} says something specifically about the x1 place. It says that the relationship between the five places is still going on after its natural end point. If what used to be the destination is no longer the destination, then the relationship is no longer going on, and za'o does not apply. This is different than in English, where there is only one argument of the action "going" to take into account. co'o mi'e xorxes ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com