From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sun Jun 25 12:47:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3101 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2000 19:47:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 Jun 2000 19:47:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.240.188) by mta3 with SMTP; 25 Jun 2000 19:47:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 70830 invoked by uid 0); 25 Jun 2000 19:47:35 -0000 Message-ID: <20000625194735.70829.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.42.153.61 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:47:35 PDT X-Originating-IP: [200.42.153.61] To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] RECORD: containers Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:47:35 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed From: "Jorge Llambias" la pycyn cusku di'e >The various words for containers are defined with various prepositions >before >the content position. This is irrelevan; in each case the intent is that >what follows be what the container actually contains (including "nothing" >or >"air" as relevant answers). "Who Did You Pass On The Road? Nobody" is the title of the book's chapter on logic. Now, if "nobody" is not someone that you can pass on the road, then how can "nothing" be something that a container actually contains? It sounds all wrong to me. Is it because "bottle" is a noun in English, while "pass" is a verb, so that bottles remain bottles even when containing nothing, but passers are not passers if they pass nobody? But aren't gismu in Lojban supposed to behave the same way whether related to a verb or to a noun? Otherwise we run into all sorts of problems, do two bottles that contain nothing share the same contents, or do they contain two different nothings? There is no problem in calling {le botpi} something that ka'e botpi, or ta'e botpi, even when it is not in the act of ca'a ca'o botpi, but saying {ta botpi noda} does not make the claim "that is an empty bottle". It says "that is not a bottle of something", exactly equivalent to {ta na botpi da}, isn't it? Or maybe we are talking of a different kind of "nothing", not the {noda} which is equivalent to {naku su'oda}? co'o mi'e xorxes ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com