Subject: Re: [lojban] Opposite of za'o

From: "Jorge Llambias" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:41:43 PDT

la adam cusku di'e

>I think that "za'o" is a certain take on "still" & companions,
>and is often a good translation for it, but sometimes
>the event has not passed any kind of a potential end
>(whether natural or not) but nevertheless might be marked
>with "still" in English.

Could you give some example? It may be as you say, but to me
"still" has a strong component of "beyond expectation".

>In these cases you can use "co'unai"
>or "mo'unai" according to the context.

But {co'u} and {mo'u} refer to the transition point between
action and non-action. "still", "already", "no longer" and
"not yet" refer to the part where the event is happening or
not happening, not to the turning point.

>Thus, in some
>circumstances, "co'u" and "mo'u" would be good translations
>for "no longer".

Maybe, but the focus is completely different. Can you think
of some examples? {ca co'u} does not mean "is now over",
that is {ca ba'o}. {ca mo'u} means "it is right now being
finished". It refers to the transition, the same as {co'a}.

>I think that "pu'o" is generally a good translation for
>"not yet". Both say that the event has not yet started,
>and neither imply that the event will actually happen.

But there is a very significant difference! "Not yet" refers
to an event that *should* have started but hasn't, while
{pu'o} refers to a situation where an event is about to start,
but there is nothing in it to suggest that it should have
already started. "She has not arrived yet" is very different
from "she is about to arrive". They give different information.

>Thus, "already" could sometimes be "na pu'o/pu'onai",

I can't imagine how that one could work. To me that does
not even say that the event need be happening.

>"co'u na", or "mo'u na",

These are just {co'a}, aren't they? {mo'u na} is even
contrary to "already" because if the not-happening is
complete it is even natural that the happening should
start, whereas "already" has the contrary expectation.

>but intuitively "already" doesn't
>contain any negation, as you pointed out, and I can't
>think of any one word for it.

It is certainly the potential ZAhO that I miss the most.

>I think that ZA'Onai is na ZA'O since to me this is most
>intuitive, and since 'nai' is supposed to be negating
>the ZA'O, and na ZA'O is a negated ZA'O, whereas ZA'O
>na is still a type of affirmative ZA'O.

That make sense. It could be confusing, since ZAhOnai
and ZAhO na sound so close, but we just have to pronounce
carefully.

{nai} does not always negate, sometimes it marks the opposite,
which is why at some point I proposed {za'onai} for "already",
because they are some kind of opposites, but yes, I agree with
your reasoning.

co'o mi'e xorxes

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