Subject: Re: [lojban] A rose is a rose is a rose...

From: "Jorge Llambias" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 13:02:52 PDT

la aulun cusku di'e

>So I'd imagine the only way could be to "verbalize" nouns
>like in some Native American idioms, where a statement like, say,
>"there
>are houses yonder" could be expressed as "it is housing far
>over there" - /tu zdani/ or maybe simply /vu zdani/ (?).

Yes, {vu zdani} says just that. Indeed {le vu zdani} is
"that house far over there", or if you prefer, "that thing
which is housing far over there".

>Thus the
>idea could be expressed that something like a house, tree etc. is
>somehow emanating its very being in a continuous ('materialized')
>stream - hence existing as long as it is active, grammatically
>similar to 'the rain' (in many languages as English, German, French,
>Italian, Romanian etc. - and maybe Hungarian too): "it is raining",
>"es regnet", "il pleut", "piove", "ploua" - "esik"(=it falls,
>namely "it=the falling").

Yes, I think that's a good approach.

>If this is the fact, the well-known English phrase "A rose is a rose
>is a rose..." (unusual in English grammar and hence its sense not
>quite obvious at first glance) in Lojban simply could be "lo rozgu cu
>rozgu" or even just "rozgu".

Or {za'o rozgu}, it keeps on being a rose? :)

>Now, back to /botpi/: if it is right that a /botpi/ is not an
>(actual) /botpi/ with its X2 unplaced (not just undefined), isn't its
>non-
>existence still more obvious (and comprehensive) when its 3rd place
>X3 is /noda/?

Yes, certainly. But there is no discussion about this because
even in English you can't have a bottle made of no material,
can you? So that part is not controversial.

>A /botpi/ that doesn't "glass" (plastic, ceramic
>etc.) is not even a potential /botpi/ (not even a virtual one in
>one's mind).

But you could have potential botpi if you have the contents
and are looking for the container. You may prefer to call
this potential se botpi, but the relation is the same.

>So, I think that /botpi/ (bottling) is only possible if
>this 'action' performs with all qualities of /botpi/ i.e. with all
>places set with /da/ (just like rain is no longer rain when it stops
>raining). What is your opinion?

Definitely so. (A different question is how seriously you
take all the places of some gismu. I tend to ignore
"tertirxu" places, places that I think really have nothing
to do with the relationship, so in fact the gismu that I am
using is not the one that appears in the gismu list. But that
can only be done with very irrelevant and high places, not with
an x2.)

co'o mi'e xorxes

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