From iad@MATH.BAS.BG Wed Jul 05 02:00:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16986 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 09:00:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Jul 2000 09:00:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO argo.bas.bg) (195.96.224.7) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 09:00:00 -0000 Received: from banmatpc.math.bas.bg (root@banmatpc.math.bas.bg [195.96.243.2]) by argo.bas.bg (8.11.0.Beta1/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with ESMTP id e658xmO21981 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:59:50 +0300 Received: from iad.math.bas.bg (iad.math.bas.bg [195.96.243.88]) by banmatpc.math.bas.bg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02858 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:59:48 +0300 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3961FCAC.800DAC2E@math.bas.bg> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:03:08 +0300 X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0; linewidth=0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Englishistic References: <8joa8j+hmma@eGroups.com> <3960FE75.16AB8A7F@bilkent.edu.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Ivan A Derzhanski Robin Turner wrote: > "Alfred W. Tueting (Tüting)" wrote: > > As far I can see, "yet/still/already etc." are quite the same > > in most European languages: also "no longer" (=not more) seems > > equivalent - "nicht mehr", "non ... plus", "non ... piu`", > > "nu mai": Yet Hungarian is different: már (=already), > > [...] and *már nem=no longer*(!) So what's different about that? It's the same as Spanish (_ya no_), not to mention the Slavic languages. > Turkish (also Altaic) is also different. Why `also Altaic'? Hungarian is Uralic, not Altaic. > "Still" (as in continuing) is "hala" (should be a circumflex > on the first "a" , IIRC); Should be a circumflex on both _a_. This suffices to label the word as a non-Turkish one; in fact it is Arabic, borrowed via Persian, and meant `now, presently' before developing the meaning of `still'. > (e.g. "daha gelmedi" - "he/she/it hasn't come yet", > in contrast to "hala gelmedi" - "he/she/it _still_ hasn't come"). I'd be curious to hear you discuss the difference between these two. Jorge and I are native speakers of languages in which `still not' is the only way of saying `not yet', and here you talk of a contrast. > There is no exact equivalent of "already"; Right. And as van der Auwera points out (in the article I cited), this is the usual way: very many languages have expressions for `still', `not yet' and `no longer', but not for `already' -- so the apparent symmetry of the quadrangle is deceptive. > If anyone would like to discuss Lojban in Turkish, I'll be happy to, > though I suspect Ivan is the only other Turkish speaker on this list. Not much of one, I'm afraid ... it's all I can do to keep my nostrils above water when plunged into Turkish conversation. Discussing Lojban (or another similarly profound topic) in Turkish is out of my reach. --Ivan