From a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com Wed Jul 05 15:21:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27257 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2000 22:21:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Jul 2000 22:21:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO relay3-gui.server.ntli.net) (194.168.4.200) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jul 2000 22:21:08 -0000 Received: from m160-mp1-cvx1c.gui.ntl.com ([62.252.12.160] helo=andrew) by relay3-gui.server.ntli.net with smtp (Exim 3.03 #2) id 139xOT-0005V8-00 for lojban@egroups.com; Wed, 05 Jul 2000 23:11:46 +0100 To: "The Lojban List" Subject: "za'o" & "still" Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 23:21:04 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <396053DD.4A69@math.bas.bg> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "And Rosta" Ivan: > Jorge Llambias wrote: > > "still" certainly has a component of "beyond expectation", > > and the expectation is completion for actions that could be > > completed. > > I'm afraid that doesn't follow (and so the rest of the argument > doesn't either). `Is dinner ready? -- No, it's still cooking.' > (Certainly not overcooking.) Emphasis on real-world {ca'o} > ({pu'omo'u}, {pu'oco'u}) in contrast to hypothetical {ba'o} > and {za'o}. This is what we need to express. I agree with most of what Jorge has said, including that "still" shd not be an attitudinal, but I strongly agree with Ivan that "za'o" not = "still". For example, suppose I count up to 20. Once I'm counting through the teens, then I'm *za'o* counting up to 10. But I'm not *still* counting up to 10. The question then is, how to express "still" in Lojban. It seems obvious that the only way is to use a lujvo: "[still] fa le nu broda". If context tolerates the vagueness, then a tanru can be used: "[still] broda". A more general lesson is that when you need to express a meaning that seems to be so far unlexicalized, then rather than faffing about with recalcitrant cmavo, a simple lujvo does the trick. --And.