From lojbab@lojban.org Tue Jul 11 07:54:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1292 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 14:49:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Jul 2000 14:49:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy-3.cais.net) (205.252.14.73) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 14:49:31 -0000 Received: from bob (ppp23.net-A.cais.net [205.252.61.23]) by stmpy-3.cais.net (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e6BEnU386720 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:49:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lojbab@lojban.org) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000711103832.00a25810@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:49:08 -0400 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: `even' (Re: [lojban] Re: Tashunkekokipapi) In-Reply-To: <20000711141040.39228.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 07:10 AM 07/11/2000 -0700, Jorge Llambias wrote: >la xod cusku di'e > >I see the idea of "even" bearing closer to surprise than to contrast. It > >denotes a truth which is not obvious. It is obvious that the presence of > >a fearsome man is fearsome. It's not obvious that his horse would be > >fearsome too. > >And yet things like "obviously even a child can understand it" >make sense. The idea is that the least likely candidate is >included, thus presupposing all other candidates are included >as well. It is not really necessary that the least likely >candidate be surprising, although it may be. It is a relative >surprise if you like, more surprising than the rest. > > >As for the sentence "he is so fearsome that it is not surprising that even > >his horse brings fear to his enemies", it is cute but doesn't hide the > >fact that if you hadn't told us that his horse is fearsome we would not > >have 'normally' inferred it from the fact that he is fearsome. > >I agree. I am saying that "even" by itself does not entail >surprise. It can be used for both surprising and non-surprising >situations. Is "even" then expressing extremity on a scale plus possible surprise? My mind is not focusing well enough now to try it myself, but maybe one of the traji places would fit; perhaps you could do something with verai. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org