Subject: `even' (Re: [lojban] Re: Tashunkekokipapi)

From: "Alfred W. Tueting (Tüting)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:52:00 -0000

--- In [email-masked], Invent Yourself <xod@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Ivan A Derzhanski wrote:
> 
> > Jorge Llambias wrote:
> > > "Even" does point to a contrast, but it is not surprise. You
> > > can say things like "he is so fearsome that it is not surprising
> > > that even his horse brings fear to his enemies".
> > > 
> > > It is as if you are pointing to a long string of things that
> > > bring fear to his enemies: his person, and also his presence,
> > > and also his strength, and also his weapons, and finally even
> > > his horse. By saying "even his horse" you are including all
> > > the other things that are more likely than his horse to bring
> > > fear to his enemies.

> Very interesting observation, Ivan! 
> 
> I see the idea of "even" bearing closer to surprise than to
contrast. It
> denotes a truth which is not obvious. It is obvious that the
presence of
> a fearsome man is fearsome. It's not obvious that his horse would be
> fearsome too.
> 
> As for the sentence "he is so fearsome that it is not surprising
that even
> his horse brings fear to his enemies", it is cute but doesn't hide
the
> fact that if you hadn't told us that his horse is fearsome we would
not
> have 'normally' inferred it from the fact that he is fearsome. Of
course,
> there is are kilometers of wiggle room in my use of 'normal'. Or:
we may
> be able to infer that his horse is fearsome if we know that he's
very
> fearsome, but we didn't know he was THAT fearsome and there lies the
> surprise carried by the 'even'.

Indeed, interesting Ivan's different examples for &quot;even&quot;: I
picked 
out the Chinese one for analyzing it:
'shen4chih4' BIG5 ¬Æ¦Ü - 'shen' is given as &quot;What? Who?
Any. Very; extremely. 
More important than&quot; and the compound as &quot;even to; even
as far as 
to; at the worst; culminating in&quot; (Mathews).
The character shen ¬Æ etymologically derives from 'kan1' ¥Ì
(sweetness of something 
'i1' ¤@ held in the mouth 'kou3' ¤f; by extension,
satisfaction, *affection*) 
and 'p'i3' ¤Ç (one half of the devisable even number 'four',
i.e. that which, 
joined with its like, forms a *pair*, a match). 'shen' ¬Æ
&quot;the *affection* 
for being that makes the pair (sexual) (...) This affection being
very great, 
says the Glose, hence the extended meaning, *superlative, very,
extremely, excessive* 
(Dr. Wieger, S.J.).

So, Jorges opinion to me seems pretty convincing, since
'shen4chih4' literally 
infact means &quot;reaching the extreme(s)&quot;! Yet, the extremes
/terai/, 
/ji'acai/(?) are part of the 'unusual', 'unexpected' - *astounding*
/.ue/, don't 
they?

.aulun. ¶øÀs

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A.W. Tueting [email-masked] ¼w°ê¼}¥§¶Â