From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Jul 11 12:05:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4356 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 18:52:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Jul 2000 18:52:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.92) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 18:52:02 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.10.119] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Jul 2000 18:52:01 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:52:00 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: `even' (Re: [lojban] Re: Tashunkekokipapi) Message-ID: <8kfqch+2qal@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2953 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" --- In lojban@egroups.com, Invent Yourself wrote: > On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Ivan A Derzhanski wrote: > > > Jorge Llambias wrote: > > > "Even" does point to a contrast, but it is not surprise. You > > > can say things like "he is so fearsome that it is not surprising > > > that even his horse brings fear to his enemies". > > > > > > It is as if you are pointing to a long string of things that > > > bring fear to his enemies: his person, and also his presence, > > > and also his strength, and also his weapons, and finally even > > > his horse. By saying "even his horse" you are including all > > > the other things that are more likely than his horse to bring > > > fear to his enemies. > Very interesting observation, Ivan! > > I see the idea of "even" bearing closer to surprise than to contrast. It > denotes a truth which is not obvious. It is obvious that the presence of > a fearsome man is fearsome. It's not obvious that his horse would be > fearsome too. > > As for the sentence "he is so fearsome that it is not surprising that even > his horse brings fear to his enemies", it is cute but doesn't hide the > fact that if you hadn't told us that his horse is fearsome we would not > have 'normally' inferred it from the fact that he is fearsome. Of course, > there is are kilometers of wiggle room in my use of 'normal'. Or: we may > be able to infer that his horse is fearsome if we know that he's very > fearsome, but we didn't know he was THAT fearsome and there lies the > surprise carried by the 'even'. Indeed, interesting Ivan's different examples for "even": I picked out the Chinese one for analyzing it: 'shen4chih4' BIG5 =AC=C6=A6=DC - 'shen' is given as "What? Who? Any. Very; extremely. More important than" and the compound as "even to; even as far as to; at the worst; culminating in" (Mathews). The character shen =AC=C6 etymologically derives from 'kan1' =A5=CC (sweetness of something 'i1' =A4@ held in the mouth 'kou3' =A4f; by extension, satisfaction, *affection*) and 'p'i3' =A4=C7 (one half of the devisable even number 'four', i.e. that which, joined with its like, forms a *pair*, a match). 'shen' =AC=C6 "the *affection* for being that makes the pair (sexual) (...) This affection being very great, says the Glose, hence the extended meaning, *superlative, very, extremely, excessive* (Dr. Wieger, S.J.). So, Jorges opinion to me seems pretty convincing, since 'shen4chih4' literally infact means "reaching the extreme(s)"! Yet, the extremes /terai/, /ji'acai/(?) are part of the 'unusual', 'unexpected' - *astounding* /.ue/, don't they? .aulun. =B6=F8=C0s http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de" http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/SPUREN.RXML">Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - =BD=BA=B9=DA=B2=AA "Tieh Meng Hen" http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/MYPOEMS.RXML">My Poetry A.W. Tueting Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de =BCw=B0=EA=BC}=A5=A7=B6=C2