From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Jul 12 13:05:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7904 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2000 20:05:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 12 Jul 2000 20:05:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.46) by mta1 with SMTP; 12 Jul 2000 20:05:04 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.10.32] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2000 20:05:02 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:04:54 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: `even' (Re: [lojban] Re: Tashunkekokipapi) Message-ID: <8kij16+jpv0@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <20000712004443.33715.qmail@hotmail.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1627 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" --- In lojban@egroups.com, "Jorge Llambias" wrote: > la lojbab cusku di'e > > >Is "even" then expressing extremity on a scale plus possible surprise? > > Possible surprise, possible happiness, possible pity, any > attitudinal can be added to it as far as I can tell. They are > all independent of "even". > > la djan ji'acai ue klama > Even John (what a surprise!) came. > > la djan ji'acai ui klama > Even John (what joy!) came. > > la djan ji'acai uu klama > Even John (poor thing!) came. > > In all cases, "even" means that John was the least likely > to be expected to come, but he did anyway. The accompanying > emotion (surprise, happiness, pity) is independent of "even". Although I like /ji'acai/, I still feel that surprise somehow is part of "even". Maybe there's no real need to express this in a Lojban word (as it isn't verbally expressed in any language I'm familiar with - but it's in my mind anyway! E.g. German "sogar" only refers to "gar", which gives a slight idea of "finished cooking" or "ganz und gar" - "entirely"). Surprise need not be 'independent of "even"' as you pointed out, and in a line with joy, fear, sorrow, pity etc., but itself being 'flavoured' by joy, sorrow etc.. In German e.g. one can be "angenehm =FCberrascht" ('pleasently' surprised), "unangenehm =FCberrascht", "schmerzlich =FCberrascht" ('painfully' surprised), "freudig =FCberrascht" ('joyfully' surprised) etc. So, surprise can be part of "even" and you could easily still add all those .ui, .uu, .ii etc. I once thought of /.ueji'a/ or even /.ueji'acai/ co'omi'e .aulun.