From jimc@MATH.UCLA.EDU Thu Jul 13 10:44:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26446 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2000 16:34:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m5.onelist.org with QMQP; 13 Jul 2000 16:34:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO simba.math.ucla.edu) (128.97.4.125) by mta1 with SMTP; 13 Jul 2000 16:34:07 -0000 Received: from localhost (jimc@localhost) by simba.math.ucla.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id e6DGY4S00762; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:34:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: simba.math.ucla.edu: jimc owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:34:04 -0700 (PDT) To: Jorge Llambias Cc: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Opposite of za'o In-Reply-To: <20000712235123.7940.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: "James F. Carter" On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Jorge Llambias wrote: >... Understood that you're more interested in the Lojban than the malglico, but since people are getting tangled up with what the English means, here's my 2 cents. > 1- An event happening when it should no longer be happening. > I use the tag "still" for this situation, because I think it > is more or less what "still" means, but it is not crucial > for me that it really be the exact meaning of English "still", > it is just a handy keyword. For me as a native speaker, "still" sometimes but not always carries the expectation that the event should no longer be happening. Examples: A. Is he still talking? I wish he'd shut up. (expectation) B. Am I too late to get the special price? No, the sale is still going on. (no expectation) > 2- An event is not happening yet even though it should > already be happening. I use the tags "still not" and "not yet" > for this situation, again with the same caveats... A. Did the package come today? No, it has still not been delivered. (Expectation) B. Am I late? No, the class has not yet started. (No expectation -- in contrast with B above.) > 3- An event happening that should not yet have started. > I tag this situation with "already", whether or not that > is the meaning of the English word. A. The bastards left without me! They should have waited. (expectation, but I wouldn't use "already".) B. I should have gotten up on time; the class has already started. (no expectation) > 4- An event not happening that should still be happening. > I tag this one as "no longer",... A. She no longer loves me, alas. (Expectation.) B. When will the green bus come? Never; they are no longer green; they have all been painted red. (The speaker doesn't expect that the event should still be happening, though he might sense that the listener, the one asking the question, feels that way.) Perhaps the right conclusion is that in English, "still" / "not yet" / "already" / "no longer" really are pretty pure event contour tags, and the expectation that the event "should" be happening or not, is carried through separate cues, which in English are often not explicit words but more in the nature of context and body language. James F. Carter Voice 310 825 2897 FAX 310 206 6673 UCLA-Mathnet; 6115 MSA; 405 Hilgard Ave.; Los Angeles, CA, USA 90095-1555 Internet: jimc@math.ucla.edu (finger for PGP key) UUCP:...!{ucsd,ames,ncar,gatech,purdue,rutgers,decvax,uunet}!math.ucla.edu!jimc