From jjllambias@hotmail.com Thu Jul 13 11:11:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27648 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2000 17:07:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m7.onelist.org with QMQP; 13 Jul 2000 17:07:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.240.204) by mta1 with SMTP; 13 Jul 2000 17:07:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 85871 invoked by uid 0); 13 Jul 2000 17:07:10 -0000 Message-ID: <20000713170710.85870.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.49.74.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:07:10 PDT X-Originating-IP: [200.49.74.2] To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Opposite of za'o Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:07:10 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed From: "Jorge Llambias" la jimc cusku di'e > B. Am I too late to get the special price? No, the sale is still > going on. (no expectation) The question sets up the expectation. Compare with: B. Am I too early to get the special price? No, the sale is already going on. You can't switch answers, because each contrasts with a different expectation. You could answer both with "the sale is going on", but still/already contradict different expectations. > B. Am I late? No, the class has not yet started. (No expectation -- Again it is the question that sets up the expectation. >A. The bastards left without me! They should have waited. (expectation, > but I wouldn't use "already".) You wouldn't say "The bastards already left!"? What seems incompatible with "already" is "without me", which makes sense because it is not "the bastards leave without me" that should happen later. >B. I should have gotten up on time; the class has already started. > (no expectation) If I had gotten up on time, the class would not have (then) already started. That is the situation "already" is contrasting with. "The class has already started" does not just mean "the class has started". >B. When will the green bus come? Never; they are no longer green; they > have all been painted red. (The speaker doesn't expect that the > event should still be happening, though he might sense that the > listener, the one asking the question, feels that way.) Of course. I don't mean speaker expectation. I mean the way the world is being described in the context. The speaker would not use "no longer" unless a contrast was required. >Perhaps the right conclusion is that in English, "still" / "not yet" / >"already" / "no longer" really are pretty pure event contour tags, and the >expectation that the event "should" be happening or not, is carried through >separate cues, which in English are often not explicit words but more in >the nature of context and body language. I doubt that is the case. When compared with more pure forms they always seem to add something. co'o mi'e xorxes ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com