Subject: Re: `even' (Re: [lojban] Re: Tashunkekokipapi)

From: Ivan A Derzhanski <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:35:18 +0300

Robin wrote:
> "Even" exists in Turkish, but as two words (which I frequently
> mix up in conversation). "Hatta" expresses the idea of "more
> than expected" e.g.
> 
> Her yere baktIm. Hatta c~öplüg~ü bos~al[tt]Im.
> I looked everywhere. I even emptied the rubbish bin.

A loan from Arabic <.hatt_A> `until; even', which sounds similar
to Spanish _hasta_.

> "Bile" carries the sense of an expected action which was not
> performed e.g.
> 
> Tes~ekkür bile etmedi.
> He didn't even thank me.

Yes, but _bile_ is perfectly possible in an affirmative sentence:
_bu is~ o kadar kolay ki bit c~ocuk bile yapabilir_ `this work is
so easy that even a child can do it', _sog~uk bile sïcak_ `even
cold is hot' (from a song by Bülent Ortac~gil). _C~öplüg~ü bile
bos~alttïm_ sounds convincing enough to me.

Yet the two constructions are different: _hattâ_ refers to the
following thing, which is often a verb (phrase), _bile_ to the
preceding one, which is usually a noun phrase or a subordinate
verb (phrase).

Thus _Hattâ c~öplüg~ü bos~alttïm_ `even emptying the rubbish bin
was a thing I did', _C~öplüg~ü bile bos~alttïm_ possibly ditto,
but also `even the rubbish bin was a thing I emptied'.

Or perhaps the main thing is that _hattâ_ adds something to what
has already been said? Let me try this: _c~ekmeceleri, hattâ
c~öplüg~ü bos~alttïm_ `I emptied the drawers, even the bin'.
What saith Robin the Turk?

Btw, _bile_ word has been borrowed into Bulgarian, where it usually
has the form _bilja_ or _biljam_.

--Ivan