From iad@MATH.BAS.BG Mon Jul 17 23:44:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17421 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2000 06:44:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 Jul 2000 06:44:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO argo.bas.bg) (195.96.224.7) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2000 06:44:07 -0000 Received: from banmatpc.math.bas.bg (root@banmatpc.math.bas.bg [195.96.243.2]) by argo.bas.bg (8.11.0.Beta1/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with ESMTP id e6I6i4N30528 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:44:05 +0300 Received: from iad.math.bas.bg (iad.math.bas.bg [195.96.243.88]) by banmatpc.math.bas.bg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA22906 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:44:04 +0300 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3973EC96.F7BCD197@math.bas.bg> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:35:18 +0300 X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0; linewidth=0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: `even' (Re: [lojban] Re: Tashunkekokipapi) References: <8kij16+jpv0@eGroups.com> <397204A7.EE564A82@math.bas.bg> <39733F53.62D30F14@bilkent.edu.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Ivan A Derzhanski Robin wrote: > "Even" exists in Turkish, but as two words (which I frequently > mix up in conversation). "Hatta" expresses the idea of "more > than expected" e.g. > > Her yere baktIm. Hatta c~öplüg~ü bos~al[tt]Im. > I looked everywhere. I even emptied the rubbish bin. A loan from Arabic <.hatt_A> `until; even', which sounds similar to Spanish _hasta_. > "Bile" carries the sense of an expected action which was not > performed e.g. > > Tes~ekkür bile etmedi. > He didn't even thank me. Yes, but _bile_ is perfectly possible in an affirmative sentence: _bu is~ o kadar kolay ki bit c~ocuk bile yapabilir_ `this work is so easy that even a child can do it', _sog~uk bile sïcak_ `even cold is hot' (from a song by Bülent Ortac~gil). _C~öplüg~ü bile bos~alttïm_ sounds convincing enough to me. Yet the two constructions are different: _hattâ_ refers to the following thing, which is often a verb (phrase), _bile_ to the preceding one, which is usually a noun phrase or a subordinate verb (phrase). Thus _Hattâ c~öplüg~ü bos~alttïm_ `even emptying the rubbish bin was a thing I did', _C~öplüg~ü bile bos~alttïm_ possibly ditto, but also `even the rubbish bin was a thing I emptied'. Or perhaps the main thing is that _hattâ_ adds something to what has already been said? Let me try this: _c~ekmeceleri, hattâ c~öplüg~ü bos~alttïm_ `I emptied the drawers, even the bin'. What saith Robin the Turk? Btw, _bile_ word has been borrowed into Bulgarian, where it usually has the form _bilja_ or _biljam_. --Ivan