From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Aug 08 13:50:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25048 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2000 20:50:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Aug 2000 20:50:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ci.egroups.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Aug 2000 20:50:40 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.10.109] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2000 20:50:38 -0000 Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 20:50:34 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: Beyond Whorf: "things," "qualities," and the origin of nouns and adjectives Message-ID: <8mprqq+9qoo@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <398DBDD4.C0910A7A@math.bas.bg> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2708 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.149.49.79 From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" --- In lojban@egroups.com, Ivan A Derzhanski wrote: > > (The 'picture' of the blue-eyed beauty seems > > stronger than that of the dark-eyed - "...akinek a szeme fekete" - > > because of syntactically coming first in order?) >=20 > Syntactically? How's that? It's "Az a sz=E9p, az a sz=E9p akinek a sz=E9me k=E9k - * akinek a szeme fekete*", yet, the latter doesn't seem to be kept in mind! > For the record, the traditional Bulgarian idea of female beauty, > perpetuated in innumerable folk songs, expressly calls for black > eyes and fair hair (compared to diamonds and gold respectively). The topic blue eyes vs. dark (black) eyes is also pretty common in Romanian songs - not only in folk songs but also in poetical=20 "romances" (romant,e): "Doi ochi odata am intilnit...", "Am iubit doi ochi albastri..." In my opinion, adoration of "black-eyed blondes" seems to go back to romanticism (e.g. G=E9rard de Nerval: "Fantaisie. ...Puis, une=20 dame =E0 sa haute fen=EAtre/ *blonde, aux yeux noirs*, en ses habits ancients...") more preserved in eastern Europe than in Germany=20 etc. E.g. reading Mihai Eminescu's poetry, one very often meets the "dark-eyed blondes" (very often compared to adored (passed=20 away) beings and angels visiting the poet in his fevery dreams): "Basmul ce l-as spune ei. ... Ai da-ncet neagra marama de pe * paru-ti blond*, curat ... Acel inger!... Fata pala,/ *Ochiul negru, par balai*..." or "De ce sa mori tu? ... Sterge-ti ochii, *blonda=20 Marta... ochii-ti negri*..." Eastern people are indeed different... >=20 > But yes, there is this meaning of `beautiful' when nouned. Let > us count them: (1) `beauty', the abstract quality (cf. Chinese); > (2) `the beautiful' as an abstract concept (similar to the first, > but perhaps not the same); (3) `beautiful thing' (any sort of thing, > not necessarily physical), the vanilla meaning of {lo melbi}; (4) > `beautiful (young) woman' (metaphorically extendable). >=20 > Can (2) also be called {lo melbi}, you ask? Well, X is {lo melbi} > iff {X melbi}. Is `the beautiful (in our life)' itself beautiful? Careful analysis! Yet - doesn't it seem so that lojban and Chinese are pretty similar in semantics?! /lo melbi/ (the *real existing*=20 beautiful *things* etc. not an abstract beauty) and all the Chinese expressions for pretty "concrete" beautiful things intertwined=20 with reality (the beauty of a woman, a tree, a robe, the morning/evening breeze, a certain flower in the morning/evening etc., the=20 moon in a special situation to a specific time in the year etc. - not at all an abstract! Remember that Chinese language originally=20 didn't have abstract concepts, e.g. freedom - even "Tao/Dao" is concrete) .aulun.