From pycyn@aol.com Thu Aug 17 12:27:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26703 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2000 19:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 Aug 2000 19:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r13.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.67) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Aug 2000 19:27:43 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.12.) id a.6f.9498e6f (2614) for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6f.9498e6f.26cd96ab@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:27:39 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Careful with noi! To: lojban@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 From: pycyn@aol.com In a message dated 00-08-17 15:00:40 EDT, maikl writes: << perhaps my lojbanic point would be clearer if e.g. a gismu for "cherry" had (say) an x3 place for its "stone" & in the song they used ZI'O there, or else "I gave my love a ribbon/ That had no threads" as MI DUNDA FI LEMI DIRBA FELE DASRI BEZI'O >> Well, that would get rid of the {noi}-{poi} problem, but it doesn't catch the English at all, saying at best "I gave my darlin' something just like a ribbon except that it might or might not be made of any material." The original seems to require that it definitely NOT be made of material (not just threads -- we can do that by using plastic) and the baseline of {zi'o} won't reach to that. That baseline drops the {zi'o}d position from the definition of the term but does not guarantee that it is empty ({botpi zio} means "bottle" but without reference to its content, not "bottle without any content"). The interesting question is whether something can be a botpi zi'o even if it noworld has a content -- the description seems to say not but the examples contain one that says yes.