From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Sun Aug 20 04:53:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6138 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2000 11:53:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Aug 2000 11:53:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hm.egroups.com) (10.1.10.45) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2000 11:53:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.10.113] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2000 11:53:11 -0000 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:53:13 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: Careful with noi! Message-ID: <8nogr9+ujbk@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1421 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.149.49.79 From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" --- In lojban@egroups.com, John Cowan wrote: > In other words, we have performed the operation which in the relational > calculus is called "projection": we have reduced a three-place > relationship to a two-place one, or whatever. With the funny result that /zi'o/ extinguishes a place while/by sitting in it ;) If I understand this right, it's a way of "creating" new brivla by cutting off one or more places for relationships to "dock on". It would be marvellous having a method to create new places too ... ;) So, e.g. a /botpi zi'o/ doesn't mean at all that it contains nothing, but only that the new word does not consider the container property *grammatically*. (Just as if talking about /ninmu/ without having structural means to state to how many children they've given birth, or about /cinfo/ without a place for their intestine's length.) On the other hand, zi'oing out a place is * obvious* - hence the reader/listener realizes that this was done *intentionally*! So, why e.g. using /botpi zi'o/ instead of just / botpi/ or /botpi zo'e .../ *if there is no intention to express that it isn't "bottling" anything* (and not even potentially)?! > > What use of zi'o should there be, if it didn't explicitely express > > that the place respective is *empty* and not just irrelevant (and > > hence > > unexpressed). > > It expresses a different relation. .i la'edi'u mo ki'e mi'e .aulun.